Current Finnish OOB - some notes for discussion - Page 3

dmnt · #21 September 10th, 2014, 07:22 AM

PvtJoker, nice to see someone else from Finland!

I've been bothering the authors for a long time over here and I'm making my own suggestions list for the future. I'd love to work together with you since I lack serious information on 50's-80's stuff and I have - by trial, error and Don's judgement - learned the fine line between authenticity and game mechanics. If you're interested, just drop me a PM and we can exchange email addresses. I thought I'd do it during the summer when I have free time but it turned out that I really didn't and I had to prioritize.

Quick note about "Musti", I've been trying to find any reliable source for the ammunition being DC-HEAT, but failed. If you can find any documentation to back that up it'd be great!

dmnt · #22 September 10th, 2014, 07:30 AM

Pssst! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=50222 in case you haven't read it.

PvtJoker · #23 September 29th, 2014, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmnt

PvtJoker, nice to see someone else from Finland!

Quick note about "Musti", I've been trying to find any reliable source for the ammunition being DC-HEAT, but failed. If you can find any documentation to back that up it'd be great!

Sorry, real life kept me from answering to this thread earlier. About the the Musti: the warhead is not technically dual charge, but instead it has a hard steel penetrator cap that will trigger at least "light" or 1st generation ERA tiles just early enough that the HEAT "jet" will not be disrupted significantly. Its real life performance against so called "heavy" ERA is unknown. Some have estimated that it won't work at all since the projectile does not have enough kinetic energy to trigger the ERA, but others think that it might work partially. Anyways, it's just guesses unless you have real expertise on relevant fields, which I certainly do not have...

From the point of game mechanics, classifying the 95 Okr of the Musti as DC-HEAT is still quite okay, because heavy ERA is more likely to resist DC-HEAT charges in the game.

For official source I recommend old versions of www.puolustusvoimat.fi from Wayback machine, which have more information that the current pages.

Mobhack · #24 September 29th, 2014, 09:09 PM

This technicality is already covered in the Mobhack help.

Relevant section is underlined.

Quote:

Class 21 - Multi Charge ATGM - Modern missile with 2 or more sub charges designed to strip away ERA, or a 'dibber' or similar device. Performs better against ERA protected units than class 13.

DRG · #25 January 1st, 2015, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PvtJoker

Limited the number of units with 7.62mm RK 54 (AK-47). Only 25,000 of them were purchased in the 1950s. That said, whoever got the brilliant idea of separating all the AK action assault rifles chambered for 7.62x39mm cartridge in Finnish service to separate weapons in the game was way over-zealous. They all have the same specs in the game (except the versions with optical sights).
.

Given that ONLY FINNS have contributed to the Finn OOB it would be ( surprise... surprise.... surprise....) another Finn ( once again..) trying to cram every last weapon used by the Finns into the Finn OOB

If there was room I would change the Info line to read

Version March 2014(C)2014 Rami Sihvo, J.Vihavainen & every last Finn who has ever opened up MOBHack & The Camo Workshop

dmnt · #26 January 7th, 2015, 04:14 AM

I started to document the possible changes or "could-be-inclusions" collected into a spreadsheet, visible here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...8yPaBM/pubhtml
Trying to include the sources over there as well, currently they're pretty terse.

PvtJoker, I'd very much appreciate if you could chip in. If you can send me your email address in private message I'll grant you edit rights. Or anyone else who wants to contribute or have a say. After looking thru a lot of documents last night (Including the now outdated 1994 antitank combat manual publicly available for any Finnish speaking reader) there's a lot of stuff to comb thru - for example 1994 manual lists laser range finders as 58-61 S 95 platoon equipment. Still some stuff like S 95 being out of service at some point between 2000-2005 before getting the hardened tip ammo back and reinstating it as an effective weapon... definitive dates are just simply missing here!

dmnt · #27 January 7th, 2015, 04:39 AM

One vital question about vision and rangefinders in the game:

Apilas sections for AT Co/Pl have in 1994 equipment listing night vision scope (1 / section, image intensifier type) and laser range finders (1 / section).

AT combat manual, in Finnish p. 214

For S 95 platoons it simply lists "a range finder" (p. 204) which I presume is an optical one.

The question: Should the LRF be added at all to these teams or will it break game balance either by making them too expensive without any added value or by making them supersoldiers who take down a tank just by looking at it?

dmnt · #28 January 28th, 2015, 06:13 AM

About 120mm mortar cluster munitions and intelligent ammo:

There are notes that there has been 120mm cluster munitions and armoured vehicle homing grenades, but:
"In 2010, a Ministry of Defence official stated that information on the size and composition of Finland’s stockpile of cluster munitions was confidential.[16]" http://www.the-monitor.org/custom/in...int_theme/3457

I found a thesis from early 2000s stating that there are both cluster and homing munitions but the exact types etc. were redacted from the public version. Most probably there have been STRIX + MAT-120 rounds, possibly others. A 2011 page in FDF site lists cluster munition round for 120mm mortar but this is after MAT-120 was decommissioned. My best assumption is that the ammunition for 120mm mortars and AMOS is exactly the same what our western neighbor (and/or Norway) is using, probably produced by Nammo, Nordic Ammunition Company.

I think I have to turn around and accept the fact that until public information is available, Finnish and Swedish mortar ammo should look the same.

FASTBOAT TOUGH · #29 January 28th, 2015, 01:47 PM

I know the reason we kept them in the Swedish and Swiss OOBs and other importers of the weapons was because we had verifiable information that those weapons were in storage with these countries. Based on that fact we felt that in a time of war especially from an armor heavy Russia (And look at what we're dealing with now with Ukraine, increased exercises on the Scandinavian frontiers and Russia militarizing the Arctic region.) these weapons would be used until expended against an attack. This discussion occurred 3-4 years ago and I believe is either in the SPA/SPAA Thread or a separate thread Don started on the STRIX. After much discussion we felt it was the logical solution to keep them.

Regards,
Pat

PvtJoker · #30 February 5th, 2015, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmnt

One vital question about vision and rangefinders in the game:

The question: Should the LRF be added at all to these teams or will it break game balance either by making them too expensive without any added value or by making them supersoldiers who take down a tank just by looking at it?

I don't think it would make them "supersoldiers". With a LRF hit probability against stationary targets will become much higher, but hitting moving targets with low FC value is still difficult, which IMHO is more or less much how it should be. And of course neither the 95 S (even with okr 95) or the Apilas have enough penetration to be effective against the frontal armor of modern Russian tanks, so players would still have to place them on good positions for flanking fire.