French OOB

[jivemi]

Originally Posted by DRG

TELL ME ABOUT IT ....

I started out yesterday looking for "a few new photos" for naval units in WW2 and ended up going over nearly every unit and formation and finding ( a couple, not a lot ) errors that had been in there for over a decade ...... that used up half a day and brought me back 45 years to a time when WW2 naval ships were what I lived and breathed for about a year. I had forgotten what a beautiful beast the Yamato was

Yes! Yamato, the largest battlewagon ever (over 72,000 tons loaded, 9 18-inch guns, etc). Her sister Musashi was pummeled mercilessly by carrier-based dive- and torpedo-bombers, taking 17 bombs and 19 torpedoes before sinking off northern Samar in the Philippines during the Battle of Leyte Gulf. Yamato bought it later on a suicide run towards the allied armada off Okinawa, taking up to 11 torpedoes and 6 bombs (Wiki). But you already knew that. (You've probably read Tuleja's Twilight of the Sea Gods too, about Bismarck, Tirpitz, et. al.)

What I love about MBT is that it reflects the assertion of air power on the post-modern battlefield. Skillful use of flyboys can make a huge difference. The more I learn about this game the more fascinating it becomes. Terrific.

[sabresandy]

Speaking of the French OBAT, check their rifle-grenades--I think it was either weapon 29, the APAV 40, or weapon 34, the AC 58. (Apologies for not being able to narrow it down more: I edited my files long before I thought to report it.) One of them had something absolutely silly for an HEK value, >10, which isn't reasonable for a HEAT or even HE rifle-grenade type weapon.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Concerning the French AMX-30 DCA they were indigenous to France only. However and I have seen the destination made between the types from other sources, the Saudis showed interest in the AMX-30 DCA and in 1975 ordered 53 new units to be designated the AMX-30SA. Deliveries were made between 1979-1982. Most likely in the same deal they also ordered 12 new SHAHINE SAM Systems that were delivered from 1980-1982. Data from SIPRI hopefully the link below will get you there. Search criteria France>Middle East>Saudia Arabia>1950-2000>Anti-Air Weapons Systems. From 1975-1990 seven contracts were agreed to and delivered between 1979-1991. Other air defense systems ordered were the SHAHINE ATTS and CROTALE.
http://portal.sipri.org/publications...trade-register
http://www.armyrecognition.com/saudi...igence_uk.html
See SAM section.
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Sec...2381369166633/
Look about 3/4 down.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...-equipment.htm
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/amx_30.htm
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/cv/tank/AMX-30.html
http://books.google.com/books?id=CGE...%20dca&f=false

Enough fun...need to get some sleep!!

Regards,
Pat

[Paulus_PAK]

Three days ago Direction Générale de l’Armement signed a deal with MBDA, ordering new ATGM - the missile moyenne portée MMP. Around 450 missiles with 175 posts are to be ordered between 2014 and 2019.
http://www.defensenews.com/article/2...sile-from-MBDA
MMP is not present in SPMBT, is it possible to add it - is there still any place left in database?

[DRG]

This is why getting solid information is such a joy

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2...sey=nav%7Chead

says

First deliveries of the MMP are expected in 2017, the DGA said. The new weapon, which will equip ground troops and special operations forces, was seen as needed to replace the aging Milan missile.

The MMP’s export potential is seen as a vital factor in the sale.
Some 400 firing posts and 2,850 missiles are due for delivery under the contract, with 175 posts and 450 weapons due in 2014-’19, the period covered by France’s upcoming six-year budget law. There had been expectations that DGA would sign a contract for the new missile in June or July.

so no deliveries until 2017 except for the ones to be delivered between 2014 and 2019

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

MMP only gets better from here...
From UPI...
"The first 175 launchers and 450 missiles will be delivered by 2019, the company said."
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Sec...3371386350826/

From Army Technology good systen data, with my highlight in the quote...
"The entire MMP development programme is funded by MBDA, and is scheduled to be completed by 2017." That would indicate a later fielding date probaly in line with the first ref.
http://www.army-technology.com/proje...range-missile/

From Deagel...
Basically same article from previous posts (I have to be fair here.) however note the upper left corner they predict sometime in 2017.
http://www.deagel.com/Anti-Armor-Wea...002504001.aspx

From army-recognition...
"The plan includes the delivery of 400 firing units and 2,850 missiles. A total of 175 firing units and 450 missiles will be delivered between 2014 to 2019."
A very good site and French.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/decem...e_0512133.html

From JANES again with my highlight in the quote...
MBDA has carried out a series of trials of the warhead and propulsion systems of its MMP (Missile Moyenne Portée - Medium Range Missile), which will provide the French Army with a new ground combat weapon expected to enter service in 2017.
http://www.janes.com/article/24009/m...pulsion-system

Give me a shotgun with bird shot aimed at a target marked MMP, shoot at it and let me know what kind of pattern you get on the target.

With a "swag" I'd say no sooner then JAN 2018.

This is why especially with new equipment it is very important to multi source the references and then followup on it until it gets to the troops, I.E. Taiwan submitted last year to get the AH-64E. This year in the first Patch input we managed to be right on target with the update provided.
ICO Indias ARJUN MKII we've made I believe since first submitted ~3 years ago at least one maybe two in service date changes and we still might not be done (Don't worry Don it's still looking good as is.) this the nature of the beast and not a knock on you Paulas or anyone else. And it also cuts down significally fixes and deletions later in the OOB's.

Regards,
Pat

[DRG]

I compromised and used 6/2017.

I doubt that any of the dates quoted will be correct which is REALLY why I would rather not put things in until the troops actually get their grubby little mitts on them. This system could easily get delayed past 2020. Some of you who have been around long enough will remember all the crap that had to be pulled out of the US OOB as funding for all those bright idea was withdrawn. That was a real frigging joy to fix. I don't even want to think about all the hours I've wasted putting things in, building Icons then pulling them out a few years later so while I appreciate all the "what's new and shiny" info I would still prefer to hear about them when they are delivered not 3 years before


Don

[MarkSheppard]

A year ago, I got "AMX-30 Char De Bataille 1966-2006" Volume I-III by M.P. Robinson; which as of 2014 (date of publication) remains the most recent english-language survey of the AMX-30 series of tanks and derived AFVs.

Results of studying the books (the data is spread out amongst the different volumes):

Unit 020 "AMX-30" is actually the AMX-30B (the B is for Char de Bataille) initial order built from 1965-1976~ with the .50 calibre CMG.

Unit 021 "AMX-30B" is the follow on AMX-30B order built from 1976 onwards with the 20mm Coaxial Cannon, plus earlier production vehicles which were updated to that standard.

NOTE: Wikipedia claims that 'Encyclopedia of Tanks' by Duncan Crow and Robert J. Icks (c) 1975 says that the AMX-30 got gun stabilization from 1971 onwards, and the 20mm cannon from 1972 onwards; but I don't have that reference actually on hand to verify.

Unit 022 "AMX-30B" may not actually exist in real life; the new Obus Fleche (Sabot round) developed for the 105mm F1 gun from what I have been able to read from between the lines was paired with the AMX-10RC derived fire control system (COTAC) put into the AMX-30B2 modernization.

But I think it's allowable as a 'war emergency' compromise; representing non-standard ammunition delivered with xeroxed ranging correction cards for gunners to defeat the T-series menace in the early 1980s in a cold war gone hot situation.

Unit 023 "AMX-30B2" The fire control numbers may be a little bit too high (35) as AMX-30 Char de Bataille says that the B2's fire control system was heavily based upon and derived from the already existing AMX-10RC fire control system, which has a rating of 15 (Unit 010 AMX-10RC).

Perhaps adjusting it to somewhere between 20-25 would work better, representing evolution/iteration of the AMX-10RC fire control system by the time it was adopted for the B2?

Unit 024 "AMX-30B mod B2" I'm not exactly sure what this unit represents. It says AMX-30B mod B2 and it's start date is the same as Unit 023 AMX-30B2, indicating that it might be a "lightly modernized" AMX-30B capable of firing the new sabot round; but the armor protection is more in line with an AMX-30B2.

Unit 025 "AMX-30B2 Golfe"
and
Unit 012 "AMX-10RC sbd

According to AMX-30 Char de Bataille; the new CASTOR (DIVT-16) thermal imager was procured from 1988-1992 for AMX-10RC and AMX-30B2 upgrades/conversions. At first, they only had enough CASTOR units to fit platoon commander's tanks in each regiment. By 1990, there were enough on on hand to start work on giving every tank undergoing B2 conversion a thermal sight.

Even then, when the 4e Regiment de Dragons went to the Gulf in 1991, they didn't have enough CASTOR-equipped tanks to fill out their OBAT, so they stole the 1e Regiment de Cuirassiers' CASTOR equipped tanks to make up the deficiencies.

Units 027 and 028 "AMX-30B2 Brenus" The Brennus vehicles were placed into War Reserve Storage in 2006, and then offered for international sale -- the current 'end of use date' in game is 12/2010.

Miscellaneous AMX-30B2 and Golfe notes: Apparently as of 2014, the French Army keeps two squadrons (40 to 50 tanks) of AMX-30B2s in service to act as FORAD (Forces Adverses) (aka OPFOR) and they have fully operational main guns. I don't know if this meets the criteria for inclusion in the OBAT past the 12/2005 end of service date for Unit 023 AMX-30B2.

[DRG]

I'll sort through this in the next month or so

Don

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

We had this discussion last Feb. the background for it actually dealt with the updated armor (ERA) pkg. JANE'S reported on for the CM-11 "BRAVE TIGER" from Taiwan on Page 33 of the MBT Thread. This discussion continued on concerning the French AMX-30 B2 on Page 34 Post #331 also in the MBT Thread it covers part of what is being discussed here and made up the "decision tree" for the later models. You will note that the reference used is a French affiliated military source (And there are great pictures of the tanks shown in active storage/maintenance.), which I've re-posted below. There just was a lot of anecdotal evidence to support the 2010 date as noted in my post and beyond to support that date was due to LECLERC issues and the tanks being in active service with Force d' Action Rapide (FAR). This is well worth while to read or refresh memories. The tables cover armor thickness, ERA armor equivalent (400mm), weapons, ammo types and loads etc. etc.
http://www.flanderstechsupply.com/im...esentation.pdf

As CINCLANTHOME has said many times "I have a large data storage unit inside my head." Another reason I needed break besides all the life issues.

I had other sources but as my work never developed this year as posted already, they didn't transition to my new computer as I had hoped-a learning curve thing for me and there where casualties allow the way. Anyway...

Hopefully this will help some.

Regards,
Pat