Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92

[Executor]

"Do you have any actual justification for this? A 500 gold cap only with only S2 is about the ideal target for magic duel, and the MA is the strongest age for astral."

Justification? It's a personal matter so I doubt I need to justify myself. I find teleporting/returning more reliable than having a commander stuck.

Nitpick, twist and turn...

"If Adonim can't be risked against humans before the human can field counters, why exactly are they OP?"

You serious? What counters? What are you talking about?
I'm saying why would anyone send an unfitted Adon against a human player? Or any other Giant for that matter.

"Everybody has to be careful against heavy cav and elephants. Adonim have to be careful against something like half the indy provinces you are likely to see in an initial expansion. And if you are recruiting Adonim for expansion, they aren't going to be notably nasty until well into year 2 thanks to your awful research. If you aren't, you are leaning on expensive regulars, expensive mercenaries, and expensive researchers while your scales are not exactly great (combining misfortune and death, how fun) thanks to a high bless that you aren't even using. Unless of course, you just decide not to take a high bless for a unit that you won't even field until year 2. How exactly are they OP again?"

So kill half the indies with Adons and the other half with something else.
Yes, if you recruit as many Adons as you can they aren't gonna be as nasty. But, again, why would you recruit them every turn? Make one or two for expansion (again, if you take that road) and build up your economy and nation.
Play them like you'd play C'tis. Make a war machine and start recruiting them after you establish an economy. I've never once recruited a mage with C'tis before turn 15. It's all a matter of opportunistic cost.
Once you have established yourself start recruiting them every turn.
Expensive regulars, which clear indies nicely.
Expensive mercs which clear indies nicely. (Othervice I doubt anyone would bid for them)
You scales are good enough. Better than average I'd say. BTW, ammmm, don't use death if you don't like it???
And yes, taking a bless you effectively start using around turn 15 when you start facing real opposition. Sort of like when you play Yomi, or don't you take a bless since you can't reliably expand with them from turn 1?

"Moreover, you seem to be forgetting your initial claim, that Ashdod can field fully geared and buffed SCs year 1, and nobody else can, and that's why Adon are OP. You've now admitted that's not actually true, that Ashdod can gear up SCs no earlier than anybody else. At which point, how exactly is an Adon superior to the geared, mistformed/mirror imaged Fom King, or fireshield/earth buffed Dai Oni that would also be fielded at the same time?"

How have I admitted this is not true? Oh, excuse me, it's not turn 13 but turn 14, mybe 15 in some cases? How silly of me...
Like I said, Dominions is a game of chance and opportunity. But yes, you can get them aroundish year 2. Maybe a bit sooner maybe a bit later.

Ashdod certainly can't gear up sooner than anyone else. I've never said as much. I've said once they gear up they're better than anything else. Please follow.

[Shangrila00]

Originally Posted by Executor

Justification? It's a personal matter so I doubt I need to justify myself. I find teleporting/returning more reliable than having a commander stuck.

Wait what? That makes no more sense that your claim about year 1 geared and buffed Adons. Are you casting Ritual of Return on your Adons so they fly back home every time they take a hit? Or scripting returning round 5, so they only fight 3 rounds (or 2, or none depending on your buffs). What exactly is that supposed to achieve? How exactly would an astral Adon be able to both fight, and not be stuck whereever it teleported same as a cloud trapezer?

It's increasingly obvious that you are just making up nonsense because of some crazy vendetta against Adonim. I mean, really?

You serious? What counters? What are you talking about?
I'm saying why would anyone send an unfitted Adon against a human player? Or any other Giant for that matter

So..did you somehow forget an entire line of argument? You know, about how if you don't replace armor, shield, and weapon, Adonim are subject to very low research counters, and if you do, you can't exactly argue about how Ashdod can't be balanced with Adonim without also arguing the same about Gath and Kohen Gadols. You do remember your extremely strong claim about Adons right? Surely, you wouldn't be attempting to backpedal? Admittedly, to a more reasonable general argument about Ashdod being OP, but have the spine to say so outright.

You scales are good enough. Better than average I'd say. BTW, ammmm, don't use death if you don't like it???
And yes, taking a bless you effectively start using around turn 15 when you start facing real opposition. Sort of like when you play Yomi, or don't you take a bless since you can't reliably expand with them from turn 1?

So are you claiming Yomi cannot be balanced without removing Dai Oni? You aren't forgetting what you are arguing are you? Demonstrating that high bless Ashdod is playable is pointless and trite.

How have I admitted this is not true? Oh, excuse me, it's not turn 13 but turn 14, mybe 15 in some cases? How silly of me...
Like I said, Dominions is a game of chance and opportunity. But yes, you can get them aroundish year 2. Maybe a bit sooner maybe a bit later.

Ashdod certainly can't gear up sooner than anyone else. I've never said as much. I've said once they gear up they're better than anything else. Please follow.

Yes, indeed, quite silly of you to make obviously false claims in hopes nobody calls you on them. Also silly to claim without backing that geared up Adons are better than geared up Kings, Oni, etc and continue doing so after being called on it, and yet have to temerity to suggest that hasn't already been responded to.

[Executor]

OK,
Here's my impossible Adon. End of year 1, year 2 early spring. With no mercenaries used. With my terrible scales and expensive expansion units. Second fort under way also.

Place those items on the earth Adon and attack a province. That 24 protection becomes 36. Give me a nation that can match that.

Now go away little silly troll and bother someone else.

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by Shangrila00

Ermor is a communion nation, and Shinuyama's a nation with battlemagic and death magic, not a nation whose battlemagic is death magic. MA C'tis, I admit is a nation I've never figured out how to play. Thematically speaking, MA is when C'tis turned away from necromancy and when Hinnom/Ashdod/Gath turned to necromancy, so it makes sense that Ashdod's would be better.

In any case, every age must logically have a single strongest nation. For MA, I'm pretty sure that's Pythium, before and after Ashdod got nerfed. Even if Ashdod was the strongest nation in the MA, that's not reason in and of itself to nerf it (remember we are talking a unit that was nerfed and whether that's justified, not whether a unit should be buffed). Only tactics that cannot reasonably be countered at an equal skill level would be that (and I agree turn 2 0 fatigue Adons are that), and common D3s is definitely not overpowering.

Thematically, you can always argue things different ways but I don't see a thematic reason for Ashdod to have stronger D magic than the rest of them.

As for the other aspects of nations, another thing Ashdod has (like other giant nations) is commanders that won't crumble under a casting of rain of stones or flames from the sky. I think we'll just have to disagree on this as I don't see those other nations "extras" as being superior to Ashdod's and I do think giving Ashdod common D3s is a mistake. Now I'm certainly not going to say that kianduatha's idea of maybe a 25% chance of an ED random is a disaster but giving a 50% chance of just D as you propose is IMO a mistake.

Btw, I don't think things are so well defined that each age has (or should have) a single strongest nation - I think there's a top tier. And as I mentioned recently I'm certainly not looking to nerf all those top nations. But if a single nation stands out as head and shoulders above the rest then, yes, nerf it.

I think we just look at it from different perspectives. You want Ashdod to resume their former position (with a proviso that they shouldn't be able to run over people early on) whereas I think they're a solid, playable nation that no longer changes the game just based on their presence and that's a good change.

[rdonj]

Originally Posted by Shangrila00

Wait what? That makes no more sense that your claim about year 1 geared and buffed Adons. Are you casting Ritual of Return on your Adons so they fly back home every time they take a hit? Or scripting returning round 5, so they only fight 3 rounds (or 2, or none depending on your buffs). What exactly is that supposed to achieve? How exactly would an astral Adon be able to both fight, and not be stuck whereever it teleported same as a cloud trapezer?

This one is easy, actually. Your astral adon enjoys having returning available in a couple of circumstances. For example, that makes it impossible to teleport anything in to kill it as it will just vanish in a puff of smoke when you try. Then next turn it can teleport into another province. It makes it a lot harder for your adon to get stranded and unavailable if you need it somewhere else as well.

[ghoul31]

Originally Posted by Executor

OK,
Here's my impossible Adon. End of year 1, year 2 early spring. With no mercenaries used. With my terrible scales and expensive expansion units. Second fort under way also.

Place those items on the earth Adon and attack a province. That 24 protection becomes 36. Give me a nation that can match that.

Now go away little silly troll and bother someone else.

You did well playing against nobody. Lets see you play other people....

[Executor]

You're right, I'd probably do better in a competitive MP game, more incentive.
I'd use mercs and expand faster, wider. I'd blitz the weakest bastard who'd border me and double my nation in almost no time, with very little loses probably.
That is if everyone didn't decide to gang up on me from the start. But why should they since Ashdod is ruined now?

I have no doubt a gang would kill me instantly in the first 15-20ish turns of course, but, if I were left to kill my first neighbor which would have no chance in hell what so ever to fend off from this, even a 3-4 side gank would have trouble putting me down at that point.

Any nation that is unstoppable in a no diplo game should perhaps get some changes. I count Ashdod as such a nation personally. Not because of the mages, sacreds, summons, good national troops, but the absurdity that Adons can become very early on. And as such I don't think they can be balanced at all, nor Ashdod for that matter.
And this is why it will continue to be ganked upon always, whatever nerfs are implemented.

[ghoul31]

Originally Posted by Executor

You're right, I'd probably do better in a competitive MP game, more incentive.
I'd use mercs and expand faster, wider. I'd blitz the weakest bastard who'd border me and double my nation in almost no time, with very little loses probably.
That is if everyone didn't decide to gang up on me from the start. But why should they since Ashdod is ruined now?

I have no doubt a gang would kill me instantly in the first 15-20ish turns of course, but, if I were left to kill my first neighbor which would have no chance in hell what so ever to fend off from this, even a 3-4 side gank would have trouble putting me down at that point.

Any nation that is unstoppable in a no diplo game should perhaps get some changes. I count Ashdod as such a nation personally. Not because of the mages, sacreds, summons, good national troops, but the absurdity that Adons can become very early on. And as such I don't think they can be balanced at all, nor Ashdod for that matter.
And this is why it will continue to be ganked upon always, whatever nerfs are implemented.

no, a bless nation like Van with their 24 defense 0 enc troops would just slaughter all those junk troops and you would be dead by turn 20

and if you are too scared to actually play them in a real game, then please stop posting.

[Shangrila00]

Originally Posted by Executor

OK,
Here's my impossible Adon. End of year 1, year 2 early spring. With no mercenaries used. With my terrible scales and expensive expansion units. Second fort under way also.

Place those items on the earth Adon and attack a province. That 24 protection becomes 36. Give me a nation that can match that.

Now go away little silly troll and bother someone else.

Perhaps you should calm down a bit. You're, for what ever reason, taking this personally and I have no interest in...wait something sounds familiar. I mean, some people like all in strategies with dom 5 and no strong priests and hoping they don't get hit by a plague in the cap, and go AI if it doesn't work out, and it does sometimes work out for them.

But aren't you forgetting what you are arguing...yet again? You've admitted that Ashdod can't gear up faster than the other SC nations, so why don't you get to actually arguing why that Adon is better than other geared up SCs.

A Fomorian King with same equipment and research will be mistformed and mirror imaged, which is a lot safer than raw protection. A Dai Oni will still have sky high protection protection and fire shield shortly. But we've been over this. Are you really arguing the one additional slot to fit a bracer makes Adonim unbalanceable?

Originally Posted by rdonj

This one is easy, actually. Your astral adon enjoys having returning available in a couple of circumstances. For example, that makes it impossible to teleport anything in to kill it as it will just vanish in a puff of smoke when you try. Then next turn it can teleport into another province. It makes it a lot harder for your adon to get stranded and unavailable if you need it somewhere else as well.

Can you explain that a bit more? Are you saying cast ritual of return on an SC, launch a teleport attack, hope to not take any hits winning, at which point you are immune to counterattack and can indeed use the counterattack to return to a lab for further attack? I mean, I guess, but that's not exactly a huge thing that's likely to be exploitable...for anything really. Nor would it actually do anything against magic duel.

Perhaps Executor can just come out and say what he meant.

[Executor]

LOL
You're right ghouly, I will stop posting, but for entirely different reasons. A man has only so much sanity and sleep he can spare.
Good night trolls, it's been... something else entirely.