Hungarian OOB 5.5

[Pibwl]

Less extensive suggestions, than for the Czech one.

002, 003 T-34/85 M1947 - "M1947" isn't original designation, possibly used by some modern sources, and is IMO redundant, since they are the only T-34s in the OOB.
It's worth to replace 5 AP with Sabot (standard Russian load of Sabot, in early T-34/85 at least).

I wrote in other place, that Soviet standard load was 36 HE, 19AP/Sabot - but 30 HE, 25 AP/Sabot should be OK as well. I've just found 30/25 in a Polish book, possibly from Polish 1962 manual. It might concern also Polish OOB, if 002 T-34/85 was changed there to 36 HE, 19 AP/Sabot. It's sure better for a tank game.

011-13 T-55AM - proper picture of AM with extra armour is 11150. According to Polish nTW-4/99 magazine, Hungary has T-55s with Czech Kladivo FCS (as also these photos show http://mhrfweb.makett.org/MHRF/index...mid=11&lang=en ) so they should have FC 25 and laser RF, like in the Czech OOB (now only FC 15, RF 6). Probably also SD should be doubled (8 tubes).

016 T-72M1 - starting date at 1/100 is doubtful - I guess, though it's hard to find sources, that T-72M1 were delivered to Hungary at the same time, as to other Warsaw Pact members - maybe a bit later, say 1/88, maybe 1/89. It would be little likely to buy these tanks in 2000, when they were definitely obsolete. nTW-4/99 magazine (info probably based upon Military Balance 1998/99) says, that Hungary has T-72M/M1 tanks.
Of course, if we make if available earlier, it should have earlier gun, so it might be split in two units. But I don't know, if the Hungarians bought new ammo, especially multi-charge Heat, which are quite rare designs.
FC is 25, while Soviet T-72A has FC 20 (which seems closer to truth for ordinary A/M1).

025 ISU-122 - the picture is in fact ISU-152 (thick barrel with a muzzle brake). Proper ISU-122 is 0089 (or 29047 or 11260). Ammo load should be only 30 - approx. half HE and AP, with no Heat (now 40).

026 SU-76M - standard Russian ammo load was 31 HE, 19 AP and 10 sabot (now: HE 20, AP 20, Heat 20).

030 BRDM-1 Shmel - better picture is 29057 (current one 11031 is 2P32 Falanga). They carried only 6 missiles (3 + 3 reloads - now: 8 - for all countries). Correct icon with 3 missiles is 2945. Starting date at 1/61 is very doubtful, since only in 8/60 it was commissioned in the USSR, and then started its production. Realistic date is some 1962-63.

033, 038 BRDM-2 Malutka - Malutka-P didn't replace ordinary Malutka from 1/100, but rather from the beginning it should be semi-automatic 9P133 Malutka-P (on photos from some Hungarian museum http://mhrfweb.makett.org/MHRF/index...mid=11&lang=en ). Ordinary Malutka on BRDM-2 (9P122 vehicle) was produced for a short time and mostly exported to Arab countries. In 2000, the Hungarians would have to be mad to buy obsolete Malutka-P system.

There should ba added BRDM-2 Konkurs, or rather Konkursz, as is locally spelled (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBHlAdzqlKA at 1:58). I guess, from mid-80s.
May be instead of 418 BRDM-2 HOT

049 SA-4 Ganef - proper name 2K11 Krug. Withdrawn in 1997 (now: 12/100) [source Raport 9/2002 magazine]

050 SA-6 Gainful - there could be created modernized SA-6 (properly 2K12 Kub) from 2003 - electronics was improved in Poland (less prone to jamming, better radar range) and part of fire control vehicles were fitted with TI.

052 BRDM-1 - very rarely (if at all) armed with DShK MG - normal armament was just one 7.62mm AAMG (for all countries).

#058 D-422 FUG - FUG was produced from 1963, commissioned in 1964 (now 1/66) [nTW3/98].

065 BMP-1 - as I wrote in other place, BMP-1 don't carry semi-automatically guided Malutka-P, just ordinary Malutka (Malutka-P can be fired in manual mode, without improved accuracy). I don't know, if the Hungarians modified guns in BMP-1.

066 PSzH-IV (light APC) - correct picture is 23484. I don't think if vision 30 is justified - it had ordinary active night sights.

67 Heavy Truck - better picture, and fit to icon with long nose, is 11067 (similar to Hungarian Csepel http://mhrfweb.makett.org/MHRF/index...mid=11&lang=en BTW - current one is typically Polish Star 660)

68 B10 Recoilless - 1/50 is impossible, since it was accepted by the Soviets in 1954. Realistic date is 1/55 (as in Poland)

72 Malutka ATGM - it is doubtful, if Malutka team carried also RPG-7 with rockets, apart from 18-kg missiles.

(in fact, Russian sources suggest, that 3-men crew carried only a guidance device and 2 missiles, but it would decrease playability I'm afraid...)

76 75mm AT-Gun - proper pic of PAK-40 is 23008 - current one is French mle.97 on PAK-38 chassis (what was its name?..)

77 45mm AT-Gun - proper pic of Soviet 45mm is eg. 29422. Better (smaller) icon is 54 or 55

85 100mm T-12 ATG - probably it should end later (now 12/89). We have another unit #550 after this date, with Kastet missiles, but I guess, that not every gun has missiles (I don't know if they are used in Hungary at all, BTW)

91 122mm Field Gun - a cosmetic change, but better icon is 59 (shorter howitzer barrel)

Weapon 112 122mm obr38 has too much range 209 - correct is 202 (Russian oob #112 122mm M-30 FH)

92 122mm Field Gun - I haven't found info, if the Hungarians had these guns. List of Hungarian armament in nTW 4/1999 doesn't list D-30, only 230 of M.38 howitzers (info probably based upon Military Balance 98/99)

98 Malutka-2 ATGM - as I wrote in other place, Malutka-2 was a Russian recent export proposal with twin Heat, not semi-automatic Malutka-P for SP-launchers. This unit should be in fact ordinary Malutka ATGM, with normal #145 Malutka. Same comment on RPG-7, as #72

99 85mm AT-Gun - 162 guns still listed in 1999 (now ending date 78)

Regards
Michal

[DRG]

Do I assume from this that you have finished with the Polish OOB ??

Don

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

Do I assume from this that you have finished with the Polish OOB ??

Don

Noo... it was meant to be short break, but I started to dig more thoroughly, than I had planned. I'll finish this one today or tomorrow, I promise.

As you see, Polish OOB is a lot of units ...and a lot of work.

Michal

[Pibwl]

114 Mi-1 - correct pic is 9120 (now: Mi-2). Max speed was only 185km/h (61, now: 76).

116 Mi-4 - standard armament was 12.7 TKB MG in underbelly station, not 7.62. Normal load is 12 men, max 16 (unit 312 in Russian oob has 116) (now: 112).

117 Mi-8P - Mi-8P is in fact Russian designation of a civilian (Passenger) version - transport one is Mi-8T.
As a standard, Mi-8 didn't carry any MG, especially 12.7mm. I don't think that the Hungarians were an exception (the Soviets in Afghanistan fitted 7.62mm, but more often to Mi-17). On several recent photos of Hungarian Mi-8 and Mi-17 that I've spotted in the net, there's no forward MG, nor its round mounting visible in a cab's front.

If it was armed with 57mm rockets, it carried as a standard 64 (4x16) - now it has 32. But there should be also plain unarmed transport variant created, more commonly used.
Armed icon is 86 or 1910.

118 Mi-17 - if it was armed with MG (see above), it would be 7.62mm. I don't know, if the Hungarian ones were armed. Mi-17 carried as a standard 192 rockets (6x32) - now it has 64.

I've just found such Hungarian document http://www.szrfk.hu/rtk/kulonszamok/...osz_zoltan.pdf in which there are numbers of rockets 64 and 192 confirmed, and MGs aren't visible on (scarce, but interesting) photos. An here http://repulomuzeum.hu/ARCHFOTO/Mi-8.htm are several pre-1990 photos.

122, 123, 130 Mi-8T/ Falanga, Mi-8TB - I have no sources, but these Falanga-armed Mi-8s are quite doubtful in Hungarian service. Antitank Mi-8 wasn't a common variant, and there are no such armed helicopters on photos in the net. Also a pdf from a link above doesn't mention such missiles. It might be too vague info to delete these units, but I must point your attention to it - maybe it will be cleared in the future.

124 Mi-24 / Falanga - original name is Mi-24D. It carries as a standard 128 rockets (4x32) plus missiles - now it has 64.

125 Mi-24V / Sturm - rockets as above. Original name is just Mi-24V.

127 Yak-9P Vercse - original Soviet Yak-9P was armed with 3 guns 20 mm Shvak, and had no provisions to carry bombs (I don't know if the Hungarians modified them, but it's doubtful). Hungarian spelling is Jak.

Note: it's difficult to find specific info on Hungarian post-war weapons, that's why in some cases I'm basing upon general knowledge of Soviet equipment and Warsaw pact practice and rationality - it's up to it, if you find it convincing, or just disregard.

131 MiG-15 - MiG-15s didn't carry obsolete RS-82 rockets (for all countries). Could be armed with two bombs 100 kg (they didn't carry other ground attack armament as a standard)

132-134 MiG-17F, PF - MiG-17s didn't carry obsolete RS-82 rockets (for all countries). Armament of #135 of two bombs 250 kg is correct - they didn't carry other ground attack armament as a standard. Usage of rockets is known only for Soviet MiG-17AS ground attack modification (210mm ones).

If we want rocket-armed variant, there is a possibility, that two 16-tube 57mm launchers were adapted to MiG-17 instead of bombs (or drop tanks) in the 70s, but this is pure guess of what could be or could be not.

136 Il-10 Ruszkov - according to Russian Aviakollekcya on Il-10, it had provisions to carry only four missiles RS-82 or RS-132 (now: 4x 2xRS-82). RS-132 were more efficient (weapon 191 in Russian oob), but would be carried with 2 x 100kg bombs rather instead of 4. According to this source, first delivered in 9/49 (now 1/49) and used until late 56 (12/61).

There could be also variant with 2x250kg bombs and without rockets, or with 144 AP bomblets.

137 Avia B-33 - it was the same as Il-10, with same comments.

139, 140 MiG-19PF, SF - Russian sources nor Squadron/Signal MiG-19 In Action monograph doesn't recognize such MiG-19 variants at all. There were P and S, but according to In Action, Hungary wasn't among their users. Hungary used only MiG-19PM, but it was an interceptor, with cannons removed, carrying AA missiles. It could carry only 4 unguided rockets ARS-212M (S-21M, 210 mm) or ARS-160 (S-3K, 160mm), but according to this source, they were rarely used. Delivered from 3/60 only (9/59).

149 MiG-23MF - better picture is 29352 (current is flat-nosed Mig-23B). In addition to 2x500 kg bombs, it could carry also 2x250 kg.

There could be also variant with 128 rockets 57mm (4x32)

150 MiG-29A - no early MiG-29 can carry air-to-ground missiles - only Russian recent export proposals of modernized machines. Typical armament of MiG-29 is 4 bombs 500 kg or 80 rockets 80mm (4x20).

151-154 Su-22 - precisely, Su-22M3

Hungary could also use variant with at least 128 x 57mm S-5 rockets (4x32 tube) (photo with 57mm rockets http://www.airliners.net/photo/Hunga...2M3/1764363/L/ ) or at least 80x 80mm S-8 rockets (4x20) (photo with 80mm rockets
http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=7309186&nseq=0 )

158-160 Avia Il-28 - should be just Il-28, they were acquired from USSR, not Czechoslovak Avia.

Michal

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Noo... it was meant to be short break, but I started to dig more thoroughly, than I had planned. I'll finish this one today or tomorrow, I promise.

As you see, Polish OOB is a lot of units ...and a lot of work.

Michal

OK then, Just an FYI...

I've drawn the line at March 1. Any submission after that is next years work and any submission between March 1 and the release of the next patch should be held back until AFTER the next patch has been released AND REVIEWED because once we start our final checks /tests and game guide write ups I don't bother with the forums all that much as it creates an unwanted distraction.

This release the MBT OOB's contain at the very least, 20,000 data adjustments and I'm being very, very conservative in that estimate so after March 1...take a break ( EVERYBODY HEAR THAT???....... )

....and don't dump 20 pages of changes in my lap Feb 29

....and if you really want to make me happy draw your own line at Feb 25

However, given the "enthusiasm" this year for error hunting ( my "done" list is 150 pages long and still growing ) and given how much work is still on this years list you might consider giving this a rest sooner than later becasue I'm finding there are more and more things like .....

" FC is 25, while Soviet T-72A has FC 20"

and ..

" ISU-122 - the picture is in fact ISU-152 (thick barrel with a muzzle brake)."

and ..

"52 BRDM-1 - very rarely (if at all) armed with DShK MG - normal armament was just one 7.62mm AAMG (for all countries)."

and..

"030 BRDM-1 Shmel - better picture is 29057 (current one 11031 is 2P32 Falanga). They carried only 6 missiles (3 + 3 reloads - now: 8 - for all countries)."


......were already corrected weeks ago so it's really time to stop and wait to see what's been done already before suggesting any further changes becasue it's just wasting both your time reporting it and my time re-checking it and I have very little time to spare.

OK ?

Don

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

....and if you really want to make me happy draw your own line at Feb 25

However, given the "enthusiasm" this year for error hunting ( my "done" list is 150 pages long and still growing ) and given how much work is still on this years list you might consider giving this a rest sooner than later becasue I'm finding there are more and more things like .....

(cut)

I sure want to make you happy Thank you for all your hard work.
My "enthusiasm" is caused only by the fact, that only last year I've discovered this great game, after some 10-years break from Steel Panthers.

Originally Posted by DRG

......were already corrected weeks ago so it's really time to stop and wait to see what's been done already before suggesting any further changes becasue it's just wasting both your time reporting it and my time re-checking it and I have very little time to spare.

Sorry, I don't know what has been already corrected - I'm just reporting errors or small things to improve in existing 5.5 OOBs. If I understand correctly, it's best to refrain from reporting bugs until release of new OOBs, and then wait for next year with improving, if they still exist?...

Regards
Michal

[Pibwl]

OK, here's rest

017 T-72M1V - in fact, it seems, that they have Russian designation T-72AV (http://mhrfweb.makett.org/MHRF/index...mid=11&lang=en )
From the end of 1996, Russia gave some 100 tanks T-72 to Hungary as a compensation of debts [source: nTW 9/96] - probably they were these tanks (in 1996 basic M1, without ERA, wouldn't be worth enough to take - AV wouldn't be a wonder anyway). A Hungarian page http://makettinfo.hu/index.php?jobb=...v+magyar&hash= seems to confirm it, although this language is incomprehensible, even for auto translators ;-)

Now it starts at 1/105 - if we make it available earlier, it should probably have some earlier gun type (I don't think, that the Russians gave old tanks with newest tandem Heat). Maybe it should be split in two units - current one with a current gun (I have no idea if they have new ammo in fact), and earlier one from around 10/96.

151 etc Su-22 - Su-22M3 should have laser RF.

174 122mm Section - since usage of 122mm D-30 is unconfirmed, better picture would be Gvozdika 11039 - but maybe it should be used since 1981, as #031 Gvozdika. Also a list in Jane's Armour and Artillery 2005-2006 doesn't mention D-30 in Hungary, only M.1938 howitzer (availability of which might be extended).

BTW: I have no info, if Gvozdikas were really withdrawn in 12/105, as unit 031 Gvozdika states.

176 152mm Section - correct pic of D-1 howitzer is 36139

179 122mm Section - nTW 4/99 doesn't list D-74 among Hugarian armament in 1999. I don't know, if they used them before.

217 PT-54 - proper picture is 29018 or 29024

220 T-72M KMT-5 - proper pic is 29252

221 T-72B1VH KMT-5 - it's not clear, why the Hungarians have mineclearing tank stronger, than MBTs. Probably B variant is a mistake.

As for all dozers and mineclearing tanks - is there a reason to provide them with - most probably fictitious - HE/HEAT only ammo loads?

235 ZIS/ZIL-485 6x6 - at that time it was only ZiL-485. besides, should be named BAV.

Correct picture is 29202 (now it's DUKW). Lift Capacity should be 125 (it had a rear ramp), speed was 65 km/h (22) an 10 km/h on water (3-4). It was produced until 1962 (now it starts at 1969 - I have no info, when it should start). Anyway, it's unlikely, that they survived longer, than end of 80s. (now: 120)

DShK was very rarely seen on these vehicles (I've seen only one photo of East German armed one)

238 PSzH-IV - as #66 (picture etc)


(I have to go now - there'll will be one more part)

Michal

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Your reports are just a part of the overall list I've been working from which is why I said "given the "enthusiasm" this year for error hunting ". It extends considerably beyond you.

Sorry, I don't know what has been already corrected - I'm just reporting errors or small things to improve in existing 5.5 OOBs. If I understand correctly, it's best to refrain from reporting bugs until release of new OOBs, and then wait for next year with improving, if they still exist?...

Regards
Michal

I KNOW you don't know what has already been corrected. That's why I'm telling you this but you know what you have already reported.

When I get reports like a FC system should be 20 instead of 25 for a specific model tank I change it the first time it was reported in all nations using that model but these last weeks I'm finding more and more things being reported that have already been fixed including "suggestions" for photo changes that had been upgraded weeks ago like reports that say " for all nations" and " as I wrote in other place"

That is not to suggest that there are not any new items on these latests lists, there are and they are being corrected. However, what I'm finding is more and more things already done, more than say, 6 weeks ago.


Don

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

As for all dozers and mine clearing tanks - is there a reason to provide them with - most probably fictitious - HE/HEAT only ammo loads?

Yes, there is a reason. ( it should be obvious....)

They were treated as offshoots of CS tanks right from the beginning so have ammo loads designed to deal with infantry that would be directly behind the minefields and wire rather than carry regular tank AT loads. They usually have have HEAT rounds as well as HE because HEAT can be used against soft and hard targets

I'm less rigid about that "rule" now than others were in the past but that does not mean I plan to go out of my way to change existing ones either. We've had zero "complaints" I can recall and now one (1) comment so I guess it's accepted by most.


Don

[Pibwl]

To finish T-72 issue (at present state of knowledge):

From what I understood from a page http://makettinfo.hu/index.php?jobb=...v+magyar&hash= using auto-translator, it seems, that:

- first 30 T-72 were delivered in 1978 (now unit #14 starts at 1/76). Definitely not numerous (now radio 82)
Unit #14 has FC=10, while Soviet T-72 Ural has FC=15. This model had simple FCS, so maybe the Soviets didn't simplify it more (Russian author M. Baryatynski wrote, that basic T-72 for Warsaw Pact "almost" didn't differ from Soviet ones, for other countries differed mostly in armour and NBC protection). No SD apart from fuel injected to exhaust.

- from early 80s there were bought T-72M with laser RF, produced in Poland and Czechoslovakia. First shown in 1985, so maybe 1984 will be a good starting date (their production in these countries started no earlier, than some 1982). Now unit #15 starts at 1/80. No SD.

- from second half of 80s there were delivered T-72M with SD (might be omitted)

- from late 80s there were introduced T-72M1 (I've guessed 1988-89). It should have more SD (12 tubes).

- from 1996 there were delivered more tanks from Belorussia(?), but it seems, that most of them have only provisions for mounting ERA, and were not actually fitted with them (photo 30 on the page). Most probably they are regular T-72A/M1 or AV with removed ERA.

- as for tanks with ERA, photo SDC10157 here http://mhrfweb.makett.org/MHRF/index...mid=11&lang=en and 48 here http://makettinfo.hu/index.php?jobb=...v+magyar&hash= and the info on the quoted page suggest, that this is actually T-72B with "Super Dolly Parton" armour, although they are known there as AV(!), but there is few of these tanks (4?)

By the way, I don't know, if the Hungarians used BTR-80 APC before Russian deliveries from 1996 - it could be verified in the future.

Regards
Michal