Polish OOB 5.5

[Pibwl]

Would you like all APCs etc at once, or units in order?

Michal

[DRG]

Well, if I'm going to make changes it helps to have one chunk at a time that ties up loose ends. If the info comes over two or three days that's fine but as it stands now the end dates for wheeled APC's is undetermined .... you say 1991 but I have units that go to 2004 and that means either starting 1/92 or 1/2005 the motorized engineers are walking to work so if somethings a work in progress tell me it's a WIP and I'll wait for part 2

Don

[Pibwl]

So, here we continue with APC (Wheel)

438 BTR-152K - it's meant to be older APC with radio code 3 in a period after introduction of SKOT (from 1/65). However, hardtop 152K apparently wasn't numerous variant in Poland (I've seen only one photo, of drivers' training vehicle) and basic open-top BTR-152 would be still more probable. Anyway, they were used in that role not later, than until end of 70s (now 12/90).

565 SKOT-2 - open turret-like mounting suggests, that it had AAMG, not TMG (the following unit with similar turret type has AAMG). According to part of sources, it was #53 SGMB AAMG, not PKT.
It was not numerous transitional version, used as APC probably only until end of 60s, possibly even converted to DShK variants (below) by 1966 (now: until 12/90 - definitely not that long)

566 SKOT-2 - books claim, that DShK mounting was introduced after 7.62mm version (above) - 1/65 would be realistic (now 1/64). It was a temporary measure and not numerous model and was replaced by a turreted version - I'd say, until mid-70s (now 12/90).

567 SKOT-2A - turreted version was produced and used only from 1967 [Poligon 3/2010 and a Czech book on Skot] (now: 1/64). It could carry only 10 soldiers (like unit #55) (now 115)

055 SKOT-2A represents later entry with radio 91. It should rather be 90 - in spite of introduction of SKOT-2AP in 1972, SKOT-2A remained most numerous version. In fact, there's no reason for two separate units #55 and 567, if not a better radio chance in 55...

568 SKOT-2AP - SKOT as APC was used only until some 1991 (now 12/104) - wheeled APC were withdrawn during reductions of army in 1990-1991 years, following Cold War's end.

572 KTO Rys - despite numerous prototypes, it was bought by the Polish Army only in medevac variant. Usage of Rys as APC in the future is highly improbable. (Rys aka Lynx is a Polish proposal of deep modernization of SKOT, with 70% new parts)

574 SKOT-2A AT-3 - variant with Malutka missiles, available in the game in 72-73. It was under development in early 1970s. J.Kajetanowicz wrote, that "it wasn't adopted on larger scale and only a small number were given to the army". Photos of such vehicles are in fact known only from one parade. According however to a Polish article on Skots in Model 4/2000 magazine, the missiles on racks weren't operational, turrets had no internal equipment for firing missiles, and "according to witnesses, electric wires were just hanging inside turrets", and they were dismounted afterwards. To be removed IMO.


For a longer time than APC there were used (or still are) unarmed command radio variants of SKOT, but I think it's no use to add one?

I suggest to create separate variants of SKOT and BTR-152 for engineers and AT platoons, for example class 251 APC.
- BTR-152 could be used in 1955-1975
- SKOT could be used in 1968- some 1997 (1968 was a date of adoption of SKOT-Art for ATGM and artillery, the engineer version appeared several years after). In fact it was unarmed - possibly only had a provision for PK LMG mounting, if the troops carried one...

There should be created engineer's carrier TI Durian in the same class, based upon MT-LB, armed with NSVT AAMG, SD (8 tubes), used from around 1997 until 2020 (move class: track), speed 60 km/h, carry 109. It should swim a bit faster, than MT-LB thanks to hydrojets. It could replace one of MT-LBs.

I wonder, if a plain truck shouldn't be put in the same class, which is probably most numerous engineers' vehicle at present...


Purge of Class APC (track):

407 MT-LB-23M Krak - single prototype from early 1990s, abandoned.
(I've seen it on that MSPO defence industry salon, where this photo was taken...)

416 OT-62 AP - variant with single 14.5mm KPV TMG was definitely not used by Poland (I don't know, if it existed at all)

422 MT-LB-WAT - this is probably supposed to be a variant with SKOT-2AP turret from late 80s, existing in one prototype. Never used.

440 BWP-2 (BMP-2) - used from only 1/89 (now: 1/80) [Poligon 3/2010]. It carries only 4 missiles (like in Russian OOB). We have identical unit 676 available from 1/89 - one of these could be removed.

441 PT-8 - I've never heard about such vehicle. There's no mention on it in available sources, quoted before. Internet doesn't help either. The photo shows some roofless modification of T-34. If it existed, it sure wasn't used in the Polish army in 1954-1965 in any noticeable number.

504 BWP-2000 - didn't go beyond prototype stage, abandoned long ago.

670 M113GA1 - a batch of M113GA1 were acquired from Germany with Leopard tank regiment, used only as medevac and support vehicles. Not used as APC.

676 BWP-2 - duplicate of 440. (with correct first date though)

677 BWP-1M Puma - despite many talks and demonstrators during last 20 years, BWP-1s didn't undergo any serious modernization, and it's becoming doubtful. Polish Puma program itself was cancelled in 2009 http://www.altair.com.pl/start-3598

678 BWP-1M Puma+,
679 Puma RCWS-30 - as above.

Some BWP-1s are being fitted with passive sights and better radios during refits in 2000s, so maybe one of them should be replaced with plain BWP-1 with vision 30, radio 90, available from, say, 2000.

BTW: speed of 064 and 065 BWP-1 should be only 22 (now 24), like in Russian OOB.

PS: sorry for adding much work with formations, but there were really no tracked APC in Poland before BWP-1 (not counting special purpose Topas for landing units only).

Regards,
Michal

[Pibwl]

Speaking of class 251 APC - the only unit:

457 Rys M-98 - as I've indicated above, Ryś mortar carrier remained a prototype and it seems, that Ryś family (sadly) has no future. 98mm mortars are carried by Humvees or trucks.

Michal

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

I suggest to create separate variants of SKOT and BTR-152 for engineers and AT platoons, for example class 251 APC.
- BTR-152 could be used in 1955-1975
- SKOT could be used in 1968- some 1997 (1968 was a date of adoption of SKOT-Art for ATGM and artillery, the engineer version appeared several years after). In fact it was unarmed - possibly only had a provision for PK LMG mounting, if the troops carried one...

There should be created engineer's carrier TI Durian in the same class, based upon MT-LB, armed with NSVT AAMG, SD (8 tubes), used from around 1997 until 2020 (move class: track), speed 60 km/h, carry 109. It should swim a bit faster, than MT-LB thanks to hydrojets. It could replace one of MT-LBs.

I'm wondering, what will be better:
1 - to create new units BTR-152, SKOT (unarmed), TOPAS and TI Durian under one common class to carry RCL guns, mortars, ATGM, engineers, Inf. SAM - which will need only one common formation for each of these weapons/teams, or:

2 - to use ordinary APCs to carry these things. There won't be needed duplicate units of different class, but there will be needed separate formations for APC (wheel), Heavy Amphib and whatever class TI Durian will have.
A drawback of such variant is, that in fact SKOTs used for carrying support weapons or engineers were unarmed, unlike APCs.

Now we have formations concerned: 214 (APC(W) with RCL), 215 (APC(W) with guns), 226, 228, 251 (APC(W) with ATGM), 227, 229 (APC(T) with ATGM), 241 (APC(T) with Inf.SAM), 250 (APC(W) with RCL and ATGM). Maybe I skipped something.

Usage:

SKOT was used to carry RCL guns, ATGM, mortars, engineers, most probably also Strela teams. In these roles it would be used until no later, than 1991, maybe even no later, than 1990 - apart from engineer carriers (until some 1996/97).
Earlier these roles were fulfilled by BTR-152, plus it could tow guns.

TOPAS could carry 2 mortars 82mm. I assume, that it carried also Strela, ATGMS and engineers in landing units (what other vehicle could do it in landing units?) - until no later, than 1995.

TI Durian can carry engineers - from some 1997

BWP-1 is probably used to carry Strela, I don't know how about ATGM (a former soldier suggested to me, that portable ATGMs were used by mountain or airborne troops rather, since each BWP-1 was fitted with own ATGM launcher).

As for now, I leave Rosomak apart - which could be included as well, but only from 2005 (basic unarmed version - not IFV - carries ATGM, probably also Inf.SAM).
BTW, I wonder if MRV classes for Rosomaks are correct - why not just APC(W)? (like US Strykers for example)


By the way, some date corrections of what I wrote above:

054 OT-62 (TOPAS) - according to vague sources, they were kept as long, as 1994-95, when former landing units were finally dissolved (now: 12/96). I wrote some 1991, but 1995 seems a better date as for now.
There are problems with ending dates of most units, since they are usually not given clearly in publications, so it's often based upon best knowledge, but liable to be changed, when better data are found.

058 OT-65 FUG - I've found other, more reliable starting year: 1965 (now 1/66, I wrote 1963 - a previously used source mentioned FUG together with BRDM-1 from 1963, while this year the production was only starting in Hungary).

Michal

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

054 OT-62 (TOPAS) - according to vague sources, they were kept as long, as 1994-95, when former landing units were finally dissolved (now: 12/96). I wrote some 1991, but 1995 seems a better date as for now.
There are problems with ending dates of most units, since they are usually not given clearly in publications, so it's often based upon best knowledge, but liable to be changed, when better data are found.

Which proves the point about the utter futility of doing this over and over and over as new "vague sources" are found. The two years from now somebody else comes along and their new "source" says it should be 1996 again.

There's a fine line between accuracy and obsessiveness. I want to encourage error reporting but I want to DISCOURAGE obsessing over details like this.

If you have info that shows we have the date running to 2020 and it went OOS 2005 then I want to know about it but don't concern yourself too much with a year here or that becasue AS YOU HAVE ALREADY PROVED.....sources differ and with much of this stuff hard info is hard to find and a lot of these "experts" are just guessing too.

Don

[Pibwl]

I understand your point. I agree, that 1995 or 1996 for a withdrawal date isn't much difference indeed, but in this case it is sure, that all units, that used Topas were disbanded in 1995 or before.
By "vague sources" I meant in this case article in Polish Wikipedia with a statement, that the 7th Coastal Defence Brigade was disbanded in 1995 due to reaching exploitation limits of Topas and PT-76. It would suggest, that they were used until the brigade's end; unfortunately, with no reference to support it. According to other articles, in 1994 there were disbanded most (if not all) brigade's battalions.

Michal

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

022 Leopard 2A4+ - it should have more SD I think (apart from 1 SD and 2 VIRSS). According to a Polish military forum NFoW, Polish Leopards don't use HE ammo as for now (although it was developed in Poland).

023 Leopard 2A4P - Leo 2 with Lahat missile (...) To be removed as for now IMO.

I've found, that in 2009 Polish MoD ordered a batch of HE ammunition, what would need also slight FCS modification. According to a Polish military magazine http://polska-zbrojna.pl/index.php?o...owe&Itemid=165 there was a meeting in November 2011 between tankers and ammunition designers and producers, to prepare putting the ammo into service. Chief of training of the 10th Brigade claimed, that "probably soon" HE ammunition will be commissioned.

So, I suggest to keep #022 with VIRSS but without HE (from 1/106, as it is now, though I don't know, when actually Polish Leos received VIRSS) and #023 from some 6/112 with HE but without Lahat.

Michal

[Pibwl]

Going farther, Inf-RR, Inf-AT, Inf-ATGM and misc. guns:

068 B10 Recoilless (inf-RR) - according to sources, used in Poland from mid-1950s (1/55 is quite likely) until 1980s at best (now: 1/50-12/99. 1/50 is impossible, since it was accepted by the Soviets in 1954). It was gradually replaced with SPG-9 and I'd say, that latest date of B-10 in units should be no later, than 12/79 - definitely not after 1989. Secondary weapons should be SMG (eg. 006) instead of rifle. Better picture IMO is 29396.

In 1994 it was reported as withdrawn - although they are apparently still kept in warehouses, and 4 were sold in 2009 to Afghanistan!

373 SPG-82 RR - there's no sign that such weapon was ever used in Poland.

First date of formations 79 and 214 should be changed according to unit #68 (1/55 also corresponds with an introduction of BTR-152).


069 B11 Recoilless - better pic is 29442 or 29397.

070 SPG9 Recoilless - used from 1968 (now 1/71) (http://www.militarium.net/viewart.php?aid=137 , other written sources confirm "late 60s"). Still in limited service, possibly until 120 (now 12/94).
Basic version should have vision 0 - there was other version SPG-9N with night sights (it could be created as a new unit). Better secondary weapon is newer 029 rifle. According to Polish sources, standard crew is 4 men (3).

071 RPG-7 - standard ammo load is 5, like in Russian OOB (8) (or is it for more fun?).

In fact, early RPG-7 used PG-7V round with 260mm penetration, then RPG-7V introduced PG-7VM round with 300-330mm penetration in 1969 (in Poland since 1972). A round with 500mm penetration is PG-7VL (apparently still fired from RPG-7V), in Russia since 1977. There is however no sign, that Poland used anything more advanced, than PG-7VM with 330mm penetration, produced in Poland and still being a main infantry AT weapon (dates from article in Polish http://www.militarium.net/viewart.php?aid=440 ).

Speaking of RPG-7:
169, 212 RPG-7V Team - there's no sign of usage of PG-7VL rounds with 500 penetration. Unit 169 differs from 212 only in having too much ammo.

If we change unit 71 and its weapon to standard early RPG-7 with penetration 260mm, then unit 169 and its weapon could be changed to standard RPG-7V with 330mm penetration, available from 1972 until 120.
The other may be armed with weapon 152 RPG-7MT - Polish tandem Heat round, ready for production in 2007, but with unclear status. Weapon's class however should be changed to multi-charge Heat.

073 Fagot ATGM - used only from 1979 (1/76) [nTW 3/2005], until some 115-120 (1/90) - next unit has a different rifle, but AKMS rifles rather won't be wiped out soon.
For 4 missiles and launcher there was required 3-men crew (now 2 men) (according to Soviet sources, some 26 kg launcher and 13 kg each missile).

075 Spike ATGM - crew is 3 (2) [Polish MoD page http://www.wp.mil.pl/pl/strona/205/LG_59_150/ ] (it sure is needed to carry launcher and 4 missiles)

215 Factoria ATGM - development of Fagot, definitely not used in Poland.

287 Fagot ATGM - 3-men crew (see unit 73).

288 Fagot ATGM - 3-men crew (as above). Most probably will be used until 120 (115).

488 Malutka-2 ATGM - Malutka-2 was a Russian recent export proposal with twin Heat, definitely not bought by Poland. This unit should be in fact ordinary Malutka ATGM. Its weapon should be just normal #145 Malutka - #155 Malutka-P is a semi-automatic version for SP-launchers (it can be used from ordinary launchers, but in manual mode, without increased accuracy). It should be available from 105 (now 1/99) (after unit #72) until not later, than 115 (now 120). Radio should be 91 or even 93 - totally obsolete now.

561 Factoria ATGM - development of Fagot, definitely not used in Poland.

Regards
Michal

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Going farther, Inf-RR, Inf-AT, Inf-ATGM and misc. guns:

068 B10 Recoilless (inf-RR) - according to sources, used in Poland from mid-1950s (1/55 is quite likely) until 1980s at best (now: 1/50-12/99. 1/50 is impossible, since it was accepted by the Soviets in 1954). It was gradually replaced with SPG-9 and I'd say, that latest date of B-10 in units should be no later, than 12/79 - definitely not after 1989. Secondary weapons should be SMG (eg. 006) instead of rifle. Better picture IMO is 29396.

In 1994 it was reported as withdrawn - although they are apparently still kept in warehouses, and 4 were sold in 2009 to Afghanistan!

OK Michal, let's review what you wrote

The B10 Recoilless was:

a/ Used."until 1980s at best "

b/ "should be no later, than 12/79 "

c/ "definitely not after 1989"

d/ "In 1994 it was reported as withdrawn - although they are apparently still kept in warehouses"


Would you like another chance to make that MORE confusing and inconsistent ?

To recap what you have told me--- It should be taken OOS in 1979 but it was used until the 80's but no later than 1989 but it was listed as officially withdrawn in 1994 but they are being kept in warehouses and some have been sold.

FYI...they now exist in the OOB until 1989 or until you can come up with information that doesn't contradict itself 5 times

Originally Posted by Pibwl

In fact, early RPG-7 used PG-7V round with 260mm penetration, then RPG-7V introduced PG-7VM round with 300-330mm penetration in 1969 (in Poland since 1972). ........

Yes we know about the early round. If you look at the OOB's the early RPG-7 round does not exist anywhere because that conserved unit and weapons slots in the Russian OOB that were and are in very short supply and , like the Panzerfausts in SPWW2 that have been blended into one so the stock "RPG-7" is represented as the 330mm penetration version in all OOB's. It only served for a short time before the improved version and this saved a lot of unit slots in a lot of OOB's and we didn't think the added penetration earlier made a whole lot of difference in the game so it's an amalgamation


Don