Polish OOB 5.5

[Pibwl]

It's time to start suggestions on the Polish OOB.

Main sources for AFVs:
- J. Magnuski: "Wozy bojowe LWP 1943-1983" (AFVs of the Polish People's Army)
- article J. Kajetanowicz: "Polskie wojska pancerne i zmechanizowane w latach 1955-1990" in Poligon nr.3/2010 (Polish armoured and mechanized weapons 1955-1990)
- article J. Kajetanowicz: "Prace nad rozwojem sprzętu pancernego w Polsce - przegląd lat 1955-1990" in Poligon nr.5/2010 (Works upon AFV development in Poland)

001 PT-76 - commissioned from 1958 (now: 1/56) [Poligon 5/2010] - needs date change in formation #08. Standard ammo load included 10 AP, 5 sabot and 5 Heat instead of 10AP, 10 Heat [Russian Tekhnika i vooruzhenie 9/2008]

019 PT-76B - variant B was bought in 1962 (now: 1/77) [Poligon 5/2010]. Should be used until 1975 (now: 12/96), then replaced with new variant with DShK and improved vision. Ammo load as above.

702 Marynarka PT-76 - should be named just PT-76B. This name makes no sense (literally "Navy PT-76"), for no Polish amphibian tanks were used by the Navy - landing units belonged to the Army. It should be Polish-modified variant with added DShK AAMG and vision=15-20, used from 1972 (now 1/75) [Poligon 5/2010]. Withdrawn by 1992 (now: 12/96). Machine gun should be #64 PKT instead of #62 SGMT (introduced in PT-76B since 1967 - though it's actually worse weapon in the game...). Icon should be ordinary green 2680, as color photos confirm, not grey.

Weight of PT-76s actually was 14 t (10). I know, that some tanks in the game have exact weight, some not, but I'll try to point out differences from real weight, especially, that same tanks in the OOB happen to have different weights. It might be ignored, if it's considered not important.


002 T-34/85 (Med.tank) - early T-34/85s definitely didn't use Heat rounds - should be replaced with 5 Sabot (in fact, according to quoted Russian source, standard load was 36 HE, 14 AP, 5 sabot - which does not seem practical in tank game). Weight should be 32t (22), like in Russian oob and unit #11.

011 T-34/85 M1 (Obs.tank) - better way of writing is "T-34/85M1" - in fact it could be named just "T-34/85M", because M1 and M2 were only project codes (often found in books, though), and a designation was just M [Poligon 5/2010]. Crew of M variant should be 4.

(I don't know if it fired BK-2/BK-2M Heat rounds, but this is their only chance...)

650 T-34/85 M1 (Obs.tank) - as above. It is doubful, if it fired earlier Heat ammunition, before BK-2. I suggest to arm it as #653 below, with no Heat.

653 T-34/85 M1 (Med.tank) - in fact, M1 modification was introduced only in 1960 (now 1/51). It could be renamed just "T-34/85" and became a tank with slightly improved post-war ammunition of "367" series (see thread http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=48212 ). Then, it should have crew 5(4), RF 3 (2) and ROF 7(6), like unit #002 (there's no reason for lower RF and ROF in this unit)

I suggest to arm it with #230 85mm D44 Gun 69 with no Heat, or #231 modified as below.

By the way: weapon #231 85mm D44 ATG could have increased Sabot penetration. Now it is identical as 85mm ZiS S-53 (AP 12, Sabot 16), while according to that Russian page http://vadimvswar.narod.ru/ALL_OUT/T...O/SuPTO034.htm , max penetration of APCR BR-367P was 210@500m (AP was similar - 119mm). Even older APCR BR-365P pierced 180@100m.

013 T-34/76 M1943 - better name is just T-34/76 (designation M1943 is used only in modern books, wasn't used in service and is redundant, since we have only one T-34/76). Weight should be some 28t (21)

Special variants:

250 T-34/85 PT54 - Speed of T-34 with mine roller was stated in Soviet sources only at 25 km/h [Poligon (Russian) 2/2002]. Possibly ammo should be redistributed to more balanced load, like a standard tank, or is there some rule concerning rollers? Anyway, early T-34/85 didn't use Heat. Weight should be 32 - plus 8t of roller.

Lowering speed should concern all tanks with heavy rollers PT-34 (5 ton), PT-54 (8 ton), KMT-5 (7 ton). KMT-4 and 6 were just blades.

251 T-34/76 PT34 - weight 28t + 8 (21), speed as above.

413 PT-34 - I can't see a difference (but a wrong LBM of T-34/85) from #251 T-34/76 PT34, and it seems redundant. Besides, PT-34 was not a proper name for a vehicle, only for a roller.

418 T-34/76 BTU - weight should be some 30 with dozer (21)

419 T-34/85 PT34 - I think there's no reason why it couldn't be used from 1946 (now: 1/50). Notes on ammo and speed like unit 250, but weight - some 32+5 t (22).

766 T-34/85 BTU - weight should be some 33 with dozer (22). No Heat ammo on early tanks.

Michal

[DRG]

I thought I have made it clear in other posts at other times that "weight" is and abstraction in the game had has NOTHING to do with how much something like a tank weighs so just IGNORE weight. The ONLY use tank "weights" are is to determine how many might fit into a landing craft so any weight above 27 means one tank fits, anything below 27 means two tanks fits.

IDK when people "decided" this meant how many tons a tank weights but it should be obvious it's not as the upper limit a unit can weigh and still be transportable is 55 because 255 is the highest number the game can use. If you follow the weight= actual weight logic once you get to "56 ton tank" you will never be able to transport it in anything in the game.

So don't bother cluttering up your report with "weight" issues and it will be easier for me to get through


Don

[DRG]

Michal

Please explain what I am to make of reports like this.....

019 PT-76B - variant B was bought in 1962 (now: 1/77) [Poligon 5/2010]. Should be used until 1975 (now: 12/96), then replaced with new variant with DShK and improved vision. Ammo load as above.

and then this

702 Marynarka PT-76 - should be named just PT-76B. This name makes no sense (literally "Navy PT-76"), for no Polish amphibian tanks were used by the Navy - landing units belonged to the Army. It should be Polish-modified variant with added DShK AAMG and vision=15-20, used from 1972 (now 1/75) [Poligon 5/2010]. Withdrawn by 1992 (now: 12/96). Machine gun should be #64 PKT instead of #62 SGMT (introduced in PT-76B since 1967 - though it's actually worse weapon in the game...). Icon should be ordinary green 2680, as color photos confirm, not grey.

In the first case you are suggesting unit #19 "Should be used until 1975 ....then replaced with new variant with DShK and improved vision.


OK one ends 12/75 the next with the DShK and improved vision starts 1/1976... that seems simple enough but then you say #706, the Navy PT-76, shouldn't be a Navy PT-76 and should be green not grey ( OK. fair enough so far but I'm hoping Blazej will show up to defend his OOB ) but then you say it should be a PT-76B and it should start 1972 with the improved vision and the DShK and that contradicts what you wrote in the line above saying the improved version with the improved vision and the DShK should start after 1975.

So what's correct Michal ?? 1972 or 1976 ??? You've already quibbled about a 2 year difference in the start date of Unit 1 then a few lines later give me inconsistent info for virtually the same vehicle. I'm happy to make the corrections to imporve the OOB but we're not off to a great start here as you told me to start one new unit at two different start dates

Please fully review your "corrections" for inconsistencies like this before posting them.

Thank you



Don

[DRG]

It's best to put a stop to bad habits early

650 T-34/85 M1 (Obs.tank) - as above. It is doubful, if it fired earlier Heat ammunition, before BK-2. I suggest to arm it as #653 below, with no Heat.

The CORRECT way to write that would have been to note down how THIS unit is to be armed then when you get to the next one refer back to that. NOT the other way around as you have done here. Why should I have to look up info from an item further down on the list than I am working on ? All that does is slow down an already slow and tedious process

Don

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

653 T-34/85 M1 (Med.tank) - in fact, M1 modification was introduced only in 1960 (now 1/51). It could be renamed just "T-34/85" and became a tank with slightly improved post-war ammunition of "367" series (see thread http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=48212 ).

PLEASE do NOT put in links refering to other posts on this forum for info. I work from a list that does not use active links and am frequently off line while working and I'm not happy about having to log on then waste precious time wading through a series of posts to (maybe) figure out what you want. If you want something, write it down in the post you are asking for it


Thank you


Don

[Pibwl]

OK, feel free to point out how to make your work easier.

As for weight - I didn't even think to check it, but I saw two T-34/85s weighing 22 and 32, so... Of course, I can ignore it in the future.

BTW: I'm not suggesting to change it, but the easiest way to overcome problem of max weight 55 would be to assign 55 to all tanks above 54 tons.

Originally Posted by DRG

Michal
PT-76

In the first case you are suggesting unit #19 "Should be used until 1975 ....then replaced with new variant with DShK and improved vision.

OK one ends 12/75 the next with the DShK and improved vision starts 1/1976... that seems simple enough but then you say #706, the Navy PT-76, shouldn't be a Navy PT-76 and should be green not grey ( OK. fair enough so far but I'm hoping Blazej will show up to defend his OOB ) but then you say it should be a PT-76B and it should start 1972 with the improved vision and the DShK and that contradicts what you wrote in the line above saying the improved version with the improved vision and the DShK should start after 1975.

Sorry, I haven't made it clear enough. The source says, that the tanks were modified in 1972-1975 years, so I took 1972 as the first date of the modified tank, and 1975 as the last date of unmodified one.

As for icon - I've checked it again. Indeed, J. Magnuski wrote, that seaborne landing vehicles are painted in "grey-steel". On the other hand, color drawings in books, like Magnuski's "Czołg pływający PT-76" TBiU series, always depict green tanks, with landing division's badges. The problem is, that color photos show tanks in some drab shade, rather green than grey, but hard to be named with certainty due to film quality or lighting conditions. Everybody can see a color, which he'd like to see... So we might keep it, until we're 100% sure.

As for Blazej "defending his OOB" - if he has a sources for doubtful issues, that's perfect

Regards
Michal

[Pibwl]

T-54/55 family

003 T-54B - there's no sign, that T-54B was used in Poland. Especially it isn't mentioned in the quoted book nor articles on Polish post-war armoured units and AFV development. Basic tank, produced since 1958 in Poland was T-54A, then replaced with T-55. It is doubtful, than some insignificant and unnoticed number of T-54B was bought abroad instead of buying a licence to production. To be removed IMO.

004 TO-54, 007 TO-55, 021 TO-34 - should be removed with corresponding formation 11. Poland never had flame tanks (TO-54 and TO-55 were non-numerous variants BTW).

005 T-55A (64-73) - produced and used from 1968 only (now 1/64, which is correct for basic T-55) [Poligon 3/2010]. Soviet T-55A has FC=7 (now:5). CMG should be #64 PKT.

Heat ammo was never such numerous in Soviet tanks, at least early ones (now: 15 HE, 15 AP, 13 Heat). I suggest 20 HE, 15 AP, 8 Heat as closer to truth.
(In fact, according to Tekhnika i vooruzhenie 9/2008, Soviet standard load for T-55 was 22 HE, 15 AP and 6 Heat, but this is tank-heavy game... You decide)

006 T-55AM Merida (86-94) - Fire control is much underrated (15) - Soviet T-55AM with Volna FCS and T-72A have 20, Czech T-55AM with Kladivo FCS has 25. Polish Merida FCS was more advanced, than Volna and T-72M1's system, and not worse than Kladivo. It had among others digital computer, wind and temperature sensor, adjustments for pressure, barrel wear, propellant temperature etc. I think that it should have also double number of SD/VIRSS - it has 16 tubes in all (now: SD 1, VIRSS 1). Speed was reportedly lower due to weight - some 16 (18).

008 T-55AM Merida (Obs. tank, 95-102) - as 006

012 T-54A (56-67) - vision should be 10, like in Soviet tank (now: 20) - basic version had no night vision devices, maybe only for a driver. FC in Soviet OOB is only 3 (5) (though I don't insist it should be lowered to such small value

There should be no Heat - spinless 3BK5 was introduced in the USSR only in 1961 (I suspect, that in Poland a couple years later), and there was no earlier Heat round for D-10 gun mentioned in Russian sources. In Tekhnika i Vooruzhenie 10/2008 monograph on T-54 there is ammo for T-54A quoted: 20 HE, 14 AP.

The article in Poligon 3/2010 implies, that T-54A was used from 1957 only (now 1/56), but there is no explicit statement. Personally I'd change it - seems, that they were used in divisions only from 1957.

014 T-54AM (68-73) - it's better to change to AM1 modification, with increased ammo load (AM was just a modification of A with additional fuel tanks, AM1 had further improvements, like rotating turret floor, increased ammo load, modernized drive, deep wading kit, etc - period from 68 is OK) [Poligon 5/2010].
They don't explain "increased" ammo load regarding this variant, but it should be most probably 43 rounds, like T-55 produced at the same time (I suggest 22 HE, 15 AP, 6 Heat).
There is no mention, if this modification received night vision gear - probably not yet. FC should probably be the same as T-54A.

028 T-55U (74-81) - it was T-54A modernized to T-55A standard - ammo load should be 43 (now 34). I suggest 20 HE, 15 AP, 8 Heat (now: 16,9,9). CMG could be still #62 SGMT, if it worked well... (there's no info in available sources)

(In fact, there aren't known any peculiar game-relevant differences between T-55A, T-55U, T-55M - all were in the same standard, differing in details and lack of anti-radiation lining on T-55U. Available sources don't tell however, if sights were changed.)

211 T-55M (82-85) - modernized T-55. I suggest 19 HE 9 Heat (now: 15/13).

651 T-55AM Merida (Obs.tank, 95-102) - there seems no difference from unit 008 - redundant?

654 T-55U (Obs. tank, 82-92) - ammo load should be 43 (now 34) (I suggest add 4 HE and 3 AP). CMG could be still #62 SGMT.

656 T-55M (Obs.tank 86-99) - I suggest 19 HE 9 Heat (now: 15/13)

714 T-55 (58-73) - produced in Poland from 1964 only [Poligon 3/2010] (now 1/58 - BTW, this date would be impossible, since T-55 in Soviet OOB appears in 1/58, and in fact commissioned in 5/58).
Basic model T-55 had no AAMG (confirmed by photos), but still retained SGMT BMG.

717 T-55M (74-81) - I suggest 19 HE 9 Heat (now: 15/13)

720, 721 T-54 (55-60, 58-68) - I've found information, that in 1955 there was bought only 1 T-54 as a pilot model [Militaria i Fakty 2/2003]. There's no sign of using greater number, especially in quoted articles on Polish post-war armoured units and AFV development. There's also no mention on T-54 being a subject of subsequent modernization, like T-54A/AM. To be removed IMO.


Special variants:


210 T-55/BTU Dozer - T-55 were used from 1964 only (now: 1/60-12/61). Maybe it should be changed to T-54A, and made available until early 70s (then ammo load 34, DShK AAMG, vision=10, stabilizer=1, FC=3?).

217 T-54A PT-54 - stabilizer should be 1 (0), FC 3 (2), and ammo load 34 (20 HE, 14 AP) (now 43). Road speed with PT-54 heavy roller was in fact only 30 km/h [Tekhnika i Vooruzhenie 10/2008]
Probably used from 1/57 (now: 1/56) - see #012.

218 T-55A KMT-5 - since this tank is HE-oriented, better ammo distribution is regulation Soviet: 22 HE, 15 AP, 6 HEAT (now 30 HE, 13 Heat). Or is there a rule, that mine rollers should have HE and Heat only?.. Speed with KMT-5 roller should be below 40 km/h.

219 T-55AM2P KMT-6 - Polish designation was T-55AM, but it might be renamed AMS - engineer's dedicated variant with mine plough (and MCLC). FC - like 006 Merida. Part of Heat rounds should be replaced with AP or Sabot. CMG should be #64 PKT.

225 T-55/BTU Dozer - T-55 were used from 1964 only (now: 1/62-12/67). Basic variant had no AAMG. Part of Heat rounds should be replaced with AP (now: 10).

226 T-55A USCz-55 - most of Heat rounds should be replaced with AP (now: 16!). CMG should be #64 PKT.

227 T-55AMS USCz-55 - FC - like 006 Merida. Part of Heat rounds should be replaced with AP or Sabot.

Originally Posted by DRG

Michal
I'm hoping Blazej will show up to defend his OOB

I'm not going to attack this OOB, only to improve (and correct it)

Michal

[Marcello]

004 TO-54, 007 TO-55, 021 TO-34 - should be removed with corresponding formation 11. Poland never had flame tanks (TO-54 and TO-55 were non-numerous variants BTW).

If you have a source clarifying the export or lack thereof of the flamethrowr variants, it is going to be worth its weight in gold.

Heat ammo was never such numerous in Soviet tanks, at least early ones (now: 15 HE, 15 AP, 13 Heat). I suggest 20 HE, 15 AP, 8 Heat as closer to truth.

HEAT issue varied widely across countries, years and situation. There is nothing wrong with a lowish HEAT loadout if no info is available, since HEAT was indeed expensive and often issued in limited quantities, but it should be noted that as far the T-54/55 are concerned BK-5/BK-5M was for a long time the only ammo that stood a chance to penetrate postwar western MBTs head on; as such there was an incentive to increase it.

There should be no Heat - spinless 3BK5 was introduced in the USSR only in 1961 (I suspect, that in Poland a couple years later), and there was no earlier Heat round for D-10 gun mentioned in Russian sources. In Tekhnika i Vooruzhenie 10/2008 monograph on T-54 there is ammo for T-54A quoted: 20 HE, 14 AP.

BK-5 may have been available since 1958 to USSR. Yugoslavia supposedly did get some in 1961.

[DRG]

When there is a discrepancy between a unit in the Russian OOB and an identical unit in any other OOB the Russian OOB info shall be deemed correct.

The Russian OOB was extensively reworked a couple years ago but unit updating did not extend to customer states because there simply wasn't enough time to do that. So yes, if there are differences in the Polish or Czech or East German or whatever nations units for an identical Russian one then the Russian info should be used.

It's been my intent to make those corrections when time allows but I keep getting piled on and never get the chance so it's going to be done in increments

PLEASE NOTE---none of that applies to ANY 125mm gun/ammo issue. That work has already been done and Russia uses combinations of Sabot and HEAT not found in other OOB's. AND the correct ammo for Russian supplied main guns has already been made to customer states. What I am refering to is FC or RF or stabilizers mainly


Don

[Pibwl]

As for flamethrower tanks: unfortunatley, Russian sources don't tell explicitly, that "they weren't exported". They only don't tell anything about their export, which also may be some hint. There were made only 110 TO-54, and TO-55 wasn't numerous either (no exact data are given).

Originally Posted by DRG

When there is a discrepancy between a unit in the Russian OOB and an identical unit in any other OOB the Russian OOB info shall be deemed correct.

That's why I pick these discrepancies.

Originally Posted by DRG

AND the correct ammo for Russian supplied main guns has already been made to customer states. What I am refering to is FC or RF or stabilizers mainly

By the "correct ammo" you mean penetration values for specific guns only?..

Michal