Fixes for the iraqi OOB

[Marcello]

Some leftovers and some related to new developments in the iraqi army. Bar something I missed or new develoments this should be enough for the ground units.

Unit 352 Steyr SK-105
Unit 604 M901 ITV
Unit 555 Sajil-40
Unit 463 SF Section
They could be all deleted.

The SK-105 is reported to have been in service in some old sources but it appears that this was not the case (probably some planned deal cancelled).
While a large number of M113s are in the process of being transferred to Iraq no M901 are included: only APCs, mortar carriers and various command/logistical.
The Sajil-40 is the Iraqi name for 180mm ASTROS rocket. Minimum range is listed as 15000 meters in the sources (globalsecurity etc) so it should fall under the MRLS minimum range ban.


Unit 43 ZSU-23-4V
Unit 312 BTR-152K
Unit 316 OT-64C SKOT
Unit 397 SNAR-10 GSR FO
Final availability date should be restricted to 4/2003
As far as can be told such units have not been used after OIF.

Unit n. 318 Panhard M3 VTT
It could be reclassed as class 23 APC (Wheel)
Currently it is available only in a formation that does not go past 4/2003. It would also compensate for units 312-316 being restricted to 4/2003, thus avoiding gap in formations using wheeled APCs. Some panhard APCs have been used by the new Iraqi army.

Units 346-571: SU-100M
1)FC reduced to 3 and Stabiliser to zero
2)Weapon n. 56 in slot 2 replaced by weapon n. 54 12.7 DShK AAMG
3)Final availability date could be extended, say to 12/1986.

No stabilizer were fitted, being an assault gun it would have made little sense; as far it can be told the SU-100M was a very modest upgrade. It appears from pictures that a few SU-100s may have still been around in the early part of the Iran Iraq war, probably dragged out of storage like the T-34.

Rationalization of assault guns
Unit 346-347-348-349 SU-100M, JSU-122 and JSU-152 could be reclassed as class 39 SP Gun
This would concentrate nearly all the vintage soviet assault gun in formation 18 leaving the car mounted RCL in formation 285-286

Formation n. 285 Assault Gun Co
Formation n. 286 Assault Gun Pl
Availability dates changed to 1/1957-4/2003

Formation 20 Spec Forces Co
Sapper platoon in slot 5 could be replaced by another SF Platoon

Air defense
Formations 174-176 SP-SAM and 18 SAM Battery
I suggest them to be denationalized or otherwise made unavailable.
It is still unclear what, if any, SAM systems will be purchased and when. The priority, and they haven’t been moving fast, appears to be on fielding ground based radars/support and one-two fighter squadrons to have at least a nominal air defense and ground attack capability by 2015 or so, to be followed by additional fighter squadrons before 2020. It seems likely they are following the US model of prioritizing fighters over ground based air defense and given there is barely enough money for the former it is difficult that anything will be done for the latter in the next few years, at least beyond the occasional talk.
If and when they change their priorities and make concrete moves towards acquiring such systems they could eventually be put back in.

Formation n. 245-246 SP Rocket Bty and SP Rocket Pl
Incorrect number of units
It seems that Iraq used the standard 6 MRLS per battery and 18 per battalion organization. The most straightforward solution would be deleting formation n. 245 and increasing the number of units in formation 246 to six changing its name to SP Rocket Bty.

A clone of unit 552 BM-21 could be added with 1/2011-12/2020 as availability dates. An handful have been recovered and apparently put back in service.

Unit 609 ILAV could be rearmed with weapon n. 165 50 cal TMG
This would potential free up weapon slots for later use in what is already a clogged weapons list.

Units 36-38 Assad Babyl
Icon changed to n. 357. These tanks were just T-72M1 with perhaps a little extra armor and some other minor modifications.

Formation n. 721 Kurdish Company
Units in slots 2-3 replaced by either two scout units or one scout and one 60mm mortar unit n. 804
It would make it look like more a regular infantry company, as the Kurdish units are being retrained as regular mountain units

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Marcello

Units 346-571: SU-100M
1)FC reduced to 3 and Stabiliser to zero
2)Weapon n. 56 in slot 2 replaced by weapon n. 54 12.7 DShK AAMG
....
Rationalization of assault guns
Unit 346-347-348-349 SU-100M, JSU-122 and JSU-152 could be reclassed as class 39 SP Gun

It's right to remove KPVT from SU-100, but has anybody seen a photo of SU-100 (especially in Iraqi service) with any AAMG?...

JSU should be changed to correct ISU.

Some other thoughts:

025 T-62 - according to Zaloga's New Vanguard 158 on T-62, Iraq received them in 1973 (now: 1/72).

049 Vickers Mk.6b - current armament is of Mk.VIc variant (by the way, Roman numerals were only used). Mk.VIb was armed with 0.5 in Vickers TMG (a bit worse, than 0.5 Browning) and 0.303 Vickers CMG (eg. #73 Vickers CMG from EGY OOB). I don't know which version Iraq used, but Mk.VIb was more common and is pictured.

052 SPG-9 - correct pic is 11117

053 B-10 PH Team - correct pic is 29215

061 BTR-50PK - just for a sake of completeness: it could carry up to 20 soldiers. It might cause problems of loading two sections into one APC (which might be true, btw), but #62 OT-62 has carry=118, so both can be the same.

065, 072 BRM-1 - If it's meant to be real Russian recce BRM-1K, then it needs modification, because now it's just BMP-1 with reduced armament. BRM-1K had a laser RF, ground radar and 2 SD, proper pic 11488 (only unit 72 has GSR). According to Russian sources (Bronekollektsya and others), it had 20 rounds for a gun only. Crew should be 4 + only 2 scouts, not 3+109 (might be 3+3, then we could create a formation with BRM carrying scouts - same for BRDM and other scout vehicles).

066 etc BMP-1 - standard load according to all Russian sources was 4 Malutka missiles, which concerns all countries. There was a theoretical possibility of carrying the 5th missile always on a launcher, what probably suggests Western sources that it could take 5 missiles, but a normative load in a vehicle were 4 missiles. As my friend from mechanized infantry said: "theoretically you could also fill a combat compartment with 20 missiles, taken from other IFV's".

102 7.62mm MMG Sec - proper pic for PKS MMG is 45377, same for #308

104 12.7mm HMG Sec - proper pic for NSV is 11096, same for #310

111 Mi-6A - correct pic is 11177 (now its Mi-26)

281 BA-64 - actually, it had AAMG (open turret, high elevation). But were they really exported to Iraq? I couldn't find confirmation in Russian sources (mentioning Yugoslavia, Korea and China). Production ceased in 1946, so it would be hard to find working machines in 1959.

288 BRDM-2 - if we make it class:scout vehicle, than it's worth to use them in formations carrying scouts (now: armoured car)

291 Al-Walid - correct pic is 7504

294 FUG-70 - if it's meant to be Hungarian PSzH-IV, judging from armament (I don't know if Iraq used them), then proper pic is 23484 or 23039

301 BRDM-2b (unused) - it could be changed to interesting Iraqi modification with 23 mm gun, used in 80s.

316 OT-64C SKOT - was there really such Iraqi variant of Skot with Malutka missiles? There were known photos of such Polish vehicles, but missiles were only mock-ups, and they didn't became operational.

325 Light Truck - class: utility vehicle. Should this generic vehicle be A/T wheel, if we have A/T Jeep, Land Rover, GAZ and UAZ in the same class?

330, 331 TO-54, TO-55 - it needs confirmation, if Iraq used flame tanks. Russian sources don't mention, that they were ever exported, while numbers of built tanks weren't big. It's doubtful IMO.

336 GAZ-66 - class: light truck. If we have a light truck named specifically GAZ-66, it should be A/T wheel?..

535 BMD-1 - Russian sources all say it carries 3 Malutka missiles, not 4. It could carry only 5 troops (+2 crew) - same for Russian.

Possible addition:
MT-LB /2B9 mortar - like Soviet unit #591 MT-LB Vasilek. Used in 1991 (seen on photos).

Michal

[Marcello]

It's right to remove KPVT from SU-100, but has anybody seen a photo of SU-100 (especially in Iraqi service) with any AAMG?...

Nope. But it gives it a bit of extra flexibility game wise and since I have seen only limited photographic evidence of iraqi SU-100s

I did not feel like cutting it out, particularly as they seem to have bolted additional AA weapons on a number of chassis. I'd recon it could be argued either way.

049 Vickers Mk.6b - current armament is of Mk.VIc variant (by the way, Roman numerals were only used). Mk.VIb was armed with 0.5 in Vickers TMG (a bit worse, than 0.5 Browning) and 0.303 Vickers CMG (eg. #73 Vickers CMG from EGY OOB). I don't know which version Iraq used, but Mk.VIb was more common and is pictured.

From what I recall, but I am only going by memory, those iraqi Vickers were scrapyard items which the iraqis recovered, repaired and rearmed with whatever was available, in some cases 15mm Besa, in others only 0.303s. Keep also in mind that there are very few weapon slots left so one has to be careful which weapons to add.

065, 072 BRM-1 - If it's meant to be real Russian recce BRM-1K, then it needs modification, because now it's just BMP-1 with reduced armament. BRM-1K had a laser RF, ground radar and 2 SD, proper pic 11488 (only unit 72 has GSR). According to Russian sources (Bronekollektsya and others), it had 20 rounds for a gun only. Crew should be 4 + only 2 scouts, not 3+109 (might be 3+3, then we could create a formation with BRM carrying scouts - same for BRDM and other scout vehicles).

These were originally redundant BMP-1s with some off stats. I suggested them to be modified into BRMs, since that was what they were closer to. From what I read at that time not every BRM was fitted with GSR and given the role I would expect the LRF to be an add on, rather than integrated into the gunner sight.
The alternatve would have been deleting them but I have no idea if they were actually exported to Iraq or not.

281 BA-64 - actually, it had AAMG (open turret, high elevation). But were they really exported to Iraq? I couldn't find confirmation in Russian sources (mentioning Yugoslavia, Korea and China). Production ceased in 1946, so it would be hard to find working machines in 1959.

Like for a number of other items there is no way to tell either way, short perhaps of digging in some russian archive or interviewing some old iraqi. Personally I thought it was not exported but I could not be sure and I had a long list of more urgent changes.

288 BRDM-2 - if we make it class:scout vehicle, than it's worth to use them in formations carrying scouts (now: armoured car)

There is alredy a BRDM-2 classed as scout vehicle in a formation with dismounts available.

301 BRDM-2b (unused) - it could be changed to interesting Iraqi modification with 23 mm gun, used in 80s

I am not sure it was actually produced beyond prototype stage.

330, 331 TO-54, TO-55 - it needs confirmation, if Iraq used flame tanks. Russian sources don't mention, that they were ever exported, while numbers of built tanks weren't big. It's doubtful IMO

Me neither, but everyone has them and that flamethrower T-62 which probably never existed to boot.

[Marcello]

316 OT-64C SKOT - was there really such Iraqi variant of Skot with Malutka missiles? There were known photos of such Polish vehicles, but missiles were only mock-ups, and they didn't became operational.

No idea. I would suspect it is just a carryover from polish OOB or whatever other OOB the OT-64 were picked from. The armored threat on the iranian front was less than in Europe to warrant such, though still present.

Possible addition:
MT-LB /2B9 mortar - like Soviet unit #591 MT-LB Vasilek. Used in 1991 (seen on photos).

As noted, not enough weapon slots left to add any odd little used weapon. While there are some unused or redundant weapons in addition to those one has to be careful to overwrite them with something not too dissimilar, least they screw up already existing scenarios.

[Pibwl]

049 Vickers Mk.6b - I've checked, and only 88 Vickers Mk.VIc were made, with some 900 Mk.VIb, so VIb is more probable. But I wouldn't suspect, that Iraqi weapons file is so crowded...

065 BRM-1 - I see. However, number of troops carried might be lowered and we could create some nice formation with scout vehicles and scouts (I haven't noticed such unit).

As for BRM-1K export, Russian sources say, that they were exported "mainly" to Warsaw Pact countries - so we can't be sure :-) However, Poland and CS received them only in late 80s.

281 BA-64 - I think it can be removed. They were withdrawn from the Soviet Army by mid-50s and would be rather worn-out, while they could export newly produced BTR-40.

As for BRDM-2 with 23 mm gun - I think we could add one. Authors like Zaloga write about "some" vehicles rearmed, so I think it's worth adding, even if there were few.

316 OT-64C SKOT - I think, we can safely remove this one.

Further thoughts:

225 BRDM-1 Shmel - I'm pretty sure, that Iraq hadn't them, but I can't prove it :-( A Russian page http://cris9.narod.ru/rva_2p27.htm says, that they were exported to Warsaw Pact countries, but it is known, that Cuba had them as well. I've read somewhere, that BRDM with Shmel were never used in combat. Anyway, proper picture is 29057.

227 BRDM-2 Konkurs - proper pic is 29253. According to Russian sources, it carries 15 missiles (now: 10).

Michal

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

049 Vickers Mk.6b - I've checked, and only 88 Vickers Mk.VIc were made, with some 900 Mk.VIb, so VIb is more probable. But I wouldn't suspect, that Iraqi weapons file is so crowded...

The problem is not as much whether it was b or c, if you have identified them as b variant it could be indeed changed to such (though it should be noted that even relatively rare equipment made to Iraq such as at least one M13 tank and a german SPG) as I did not identify the subtype, as to what the iraqis actually armed them with. From what I read at the time they were rearmed with what could be fitted as original armament had been removed.

As for weapon slots, there are only six available slots left, of which a couple ought to be earmarked for ATGMs, one might be taken by a PGM for the to be supplied F-16s and another by the S-8 rockets. Anything else will have to come from overwriting redundant weapons, which has to be done with prudence, least you end up with off map artillery armed with ATGMs or some such in older game scenarios.
As for why this is the case remember that Iraq has purchased both western and eastern gear.

065 BRM-1 - I see. However, number of troops carried might be lowered and we could create some nice formation with scout vehicles and scouts (I haven't noticed such unit).
As for BRM-1K export, Russian sources say, that they were exported "mainly" to Warsaw Pact countries - so we can't be sure :-) However, Poland and CS received them only in late 80s.

Formation 295 contains six scout teams and six scout vehicles, which can be chosen from all the available class 32 vehicles: BRDM-2 clone, BRM-1, M60P light APC, jeeps etc...
As for availability remember that the iraqis paid in hard currency, so if they wanted something that was cleared for export they could usually (though not always and not all of the time) get it. I was not aware of the reduced ammo load or the extent of the reduction in carried dismounts.

[DRG]

BRDM-2 Konkurs carries 10
BRDM-2 Fagot carries 15

Don

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

535 BMD-1 - Russian sources all say it carries 3 Malutka missiles, not 4. It could carry only 5 troops (+2 crew) - same for Russian

Michal

The missles had already been corrected but the 2 crew/ 6 passengers for BMD-1 will will remain unchanged. They have that standard across all OOB's that use that vehicle.

Don

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Marcello

The problem is not as much whether it was b or c, if you have identified them as b variant it could be indeed changed to such (though it should be noted that even relatively rare equipment made to Iraq such as at least one M13 tank and a german SPG) as I did not identify the subtype, as to what the iraqis actually armed them with. From what I read at the time they were rearmed with what could be fitted as original armament had been removed.

The real point is this was an educated guess based on scant information of an EXTREMELY minor vehicle so let's not spend any more time on it becasue we are perfectly happy with it being armed with the 15mm Besa and the effect on gameplay if changed would be more in the mind than reality and I've already corrected the photo .
OK ??

Don

[Pibwl]

049 Vickers Mk.6b

Originally Posted by DRG

...EXTREMELY minor vehicle so let's not spend any more time on it becasue we are perfectly happy with it being armed with the 15mm Besa and the effect on gameplay if changed would be more in the mind than reality...

That's what I wanted to say as well

As for BRDM Konkurs (9P148) - Russian sources ("Otechestvennye protivotankovye kompleksy" 2002 book) say, that it carries 15 Konkurs OR 10 Konkurs and 10 Fagot missiles.

As for BMD, this is a complicated matter... I don't say it should be changed, but just for information: according to Russian sources, BMD-1, 2 and 3 can carry only 5 troops (incl. commander) + driver + gunner. I can attach a cross-section of BMD-1, which shows three seats behind a turret and two beside a driver (operating machine guns). So it seems, that Russian BMD section in reality has only 5 men - and BTR-D in that case carries two sections (10 men).

Regards
Michal