Syrian OOB

[Pibwl]

I've browsed through Syrian OOB, and have some comments:

#10 PzKpfw-IVG - I didn't find reference of G in Syrian service, only screened H's (maybe you know they are correct).

#11 PzKpfw-IVH - all photos and drawings in popular books show tanks with screened turrets only, without hull screens. At least some were armed with some AAMG.

#48 BTR-152K - better pic for K variant (with roof) is 29107

#50 BTR-60PB - they were available in 1973 (there exist photos of PB wrecks from Golan Heights)

#83 85mm D44 FG - should have picture 11082 (11084 is used for 100 mm BS-3 gun)

#98 PKM MMG Section - proper pic is 45377

#108 Milan team should have pic 6075 (current one is used to represent AT-4 in the game - when we replace it with a proper AT-4 picture)

#110 Metis team - proper pic is 23745

#125 Mil Mi-14A - if it's really meant to be naval helicopter Mi-14, then proper pic is 29140

#134 Mil Mi-25 - better pic is 11122 (current one is used for Mi-24A, when we replace it with a proper Mi-24A)

#135 Mil Mi-35 - better pic of 30mm-variant is 11190

#165, 166, 169 - MiG-23BM, MiG-23BN, MiG-27 - I suggest to change picture to 11156 - the same, but 11143 could represent fighter variants, if we replace it with better one. Flat-nosed 11156 represents MiG-27 in the Soviet oob.

#220 B10 Recoilless - proper pic is 29215

#235 BRDM-1 - BRDM-1s were rarely armed with 12.7 mm DShk, what is confirmed by photos (it concerns all countries, I have no specific information on Syrian ones). Zaloga wrote, that "some Soviet" BRDM-1s were armed this way. Most should be armed only with SGMT (precisely saying, AAMG variant was named SGMB).

#290-292 JS-III - correct name for all countries should be IS-3 (Russian ИС-3)

#302 JSU-152 - correct name for all countries should be ISU-152

#324 BRDM-2 Malutka - they were available in 1973 (there are photos of wrecks from Golan Heights)

#325 BRDM-2 Konkurs - better pic is 29253

#478 85mm D44 Pl - should have picture 11082 (11084 is used for 100 mm BS-3 gun)

#520 25mm SA34 ATG - more appropriate picture for light AT-gun would be 9191 (until proper one would be found)

(I must explain, that I'm aiming at precise usage of pictures for a purpose of optional pack of improved pictures, that is under construction ;-)

Michal Derela

[Pibwl]

Few more:

#305 StuG IIIg - the only photo I've seen shows a vehicle without side screens (it is consistent with Pz-IVs and Jgpz-IVs, which have no frames for side screens on photos at all). The AAMG doesn't look German on photos, but it's a detail.

I have some doubts as for SP-ATGM launchers used:
#320 BRDM-1 Shmel (2P27 launcher) - Zaloga wrote, that these vehicles were not widely exported outside of the Warsaw Pact at the time, and as far as is known, never saw combat service. According to this Russian page http://cris9.narod.ru/rva_2p27.htm they were exported to Warsaw Pact countries.

#321 BRDM-1 Falanga (2P32 launcher) - according to this Russian page http://cris9.narod.ru/rva_2p32.htm there are no reports on their export. They doesn't seem popular vehicles either.

#323 BRDM-2 Flnga M1 (9P137 launcher) - according to this Russian page http://cris9.narod.ru/rva_9p137.htm they weren't exported (it concerns all countries).

According to this page http://cris9.narod.ru/rva_9p133.htm they also used 9P133 BRDM-2 Malyutka-P launchers with Malyutka-P missiles (eg. weapon 155 in Polish OOB). I don't know a starting date, though - only 9P122s are seen on photos from Golan Heights (unit #324).

#575 Tiger Moth - Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Tiger_Moth doesn't mention Syria. Not a definite source, but some hint anyway.

Michal Derela

[Pibwl]

One more thing as for SP-ATGMS: article in Tekhnika i Vooruzhenie 4/2006 lists following ATGMS supplied to Syria: Shmel, Malyutka, Fagot and Konkurs. If it's true, then Shmel would be most likely GAZ 2P26 launcher, used also by Egypt. Note, that there's no Falanga.

The article also lists APC supplied: BTR-152, BTR-60PB and BTR-70 (missing in oob). I wonder, if listing specifically BTR-60PB means, that earlier turretless versions weren't supplied. Listing BTR-152 without "K" may be a hint, that open-top variants only were supplied (BTR-152K wasn't popular vehicle anyway).

Unit #169 Mig-27 - Wikipedia doesn't list Syria as user.

Units 500-501, 510-513 - SP-SAMs' names could be changed to original S-75 Dvina, S-125 Neva, Strela-1, Osa (I don't know which variant), Strela-10 (I don't know which variant) and Kvadrat (export variant of Kub).

#596 Buried PzIV - possibly better icon would be 429 (longer barrel, rear turret basket)

Michal Derela

[Marcello]

I wonder, if listing specifically BTR-60PB means, that earlier turretless versions weren't supplied

BTR-60PB was by far the standard export version, but an handful of the earlier versions might conceivably have been supplied in the 60's to what was a relatively close client. I should dig a bit but IIRC north korea got an handful for example.
I have started to review the syrian OOB.

[Pibwl]

More on MiG-23s, mostly according to a Russian book "MiG-27":

#164 MiG-23M - first variant exported to Syria was MiG-23MS. According to this Russian page http://airbase.ru/hangar/planes/russ...23/livan-1.htm the first plane was delivered on 14 Oct 73, but it's doubtful, if it was able to see action by the end of 1973. More reliable starting date would be 1/74. Better picture is 29125 (fighter variant).


#165 MiG-23BM - it should be named BN. Speed of attack variant should be 17 (see in Soviet OOB). In rocket-only configuration, a standard was 128 x 57 mm rockets (4x32), so weapons #186 should be fitted with 11, 11 and 10 shots, or we should introduce weapon 8x57mm S-5, from a Soviet oob, with 6,5,5 shots.

By the way, in weapons' part, weapon #186 4x 57mm S-5 should be in my opinion changed to 4x57mm S-5K, with reduced (real) range and AP HEAT (eg. weapon #185 from Russian OOB), compatible with #185 2x57mm S-5K. Is there any reason to create HE-only 4x 57mm S-5 with extended range, which is not compatible with Soviet OOB? (this problem concerns also Polish, Egyptian and maybe some other oobs).


#166 MiG-23BN - Speed should be 17. I don't know, if the Syrians received missile-armed Migs eventually (at least first batches were in simplified "third world" variant), but in addition to missiles it could take 2x32 57 mm rockets or two bombs up to 500 kg.


#167 MiG-23MF - Better picture is 29125 (fighter variant).

#169 MiG-27 - according to a quoted book, Syria didn't use MiG-27. Could be changed to MiG-23BN, but it didn't use guided bombs. There was a variant instead with 4 x 500 kg conventional bombs (or maximum load 6 x 500 kg).

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

By the way, in weapons' part, weapon #186 4x 57mm S-5 should be in my opinion changed to 4x57mm S-5K, with reduced (real) range and AP HEAT (eg. weapon #185 from Russian OOB), compatible with #185 2x57mm S-5K. Is there any reason to create HE-only 4x 57mm S-5 with extended range, which is not compatible with Soviet OOB? (this problem concerns also Polish, Egyptian and maybe some other oobs).

A quick answer since I am in hurry: IIRC planes (unlike helos) don't use HEAT/AP. The AP rating is only used by class 11 weapons for the number of guns carried. Ammo has only HE effect. I will have to check the manual though.

#166 MiG-23BN - Speed should be 17. I don't know, if the Syrians received missile-armed Migs eventually (at least first batches were in simplified "third world" variant), but in addition to missiles it could take 2x32 57 mm rockets or two bombs up to 500 kg.

Kh-23 might have been available, though nothing to write home about.I will have to do some research.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Marcello

IIRC planes (unlike helos) don't use HEAT/AP. The AP rating is only used by class 11 weapons for the number of guns carried. Ammo has only HE effect. I will have to check the manual though.

Thanks, I didn't know there's a difference between planes and helos in this respect. Then, maybe planes' rockets should have HE penetration? (like eg. weapon #187 4x 80mm S-8 in Soviet oob). Now they are useless against AFVs. A distinction between HE and HEAT S-5 rockets looks kind of artificial to me (especially, that there was also HEAT/Frag variant S-5KO). But this seems a subject for a separate thread...

Regards,
Michal

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Thanks, I didn't know there's a difference between planes and helos in this respect.

Try reading MOBHack help............

Don

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

Try reading MOBHack help............

I must have skipped that part

I was suggested by the same Class 11 rockets used by helicopters, with AP ammo (is it correct then?).

Michal

[Palle]

Syrian Unit 169, MiG-27>, has no national designation.