Mod: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen - v0.75 minor update

[kianduatha]

Crossposting from the Sign of the Hammer thread since I didn't want to clutter it up:

Originally Posted by Sombre

I think the temple guard and sacred spawnings have indeed taken over too much for Lizardmen, so I'll be scaling (haw haw) them back. I am still reluctant to make them cap only, but it does seem like it would be very effective in changing the way itza plays. I may even make the 5th gen Slann cap only as well - I don't think this would actually make a massive difference (since they're so expensive) and would work fine thematically with temple guard being cap only.

That sounds like a great set of changes. Combine scarcer Temple Guards with maybe 1/2 as many units per summon of the sacred spawnings(but with ceremonial plates?) and they become your specialty units--nice for specific missions, but never numerous enough to be your main army.

Might I suggest that if you're making 5th gen Slann cap only, you might not really need Tel Cities as forts. Alternately, Oldbloods might become recruit-anywhere(I confess that I really want to use these guys, but definitely can't justify getting one at the cost of not getting a Slann). I don't think that would do horrible things, if just because you have noone who can forge Vine Shields or Shields of Gleaming Gold outside of cap-only Slanns.

[Sombre]

No the expensive forts definitely stay. It's both a balance check and an on-theme decision. The Lizardmen created only one new temple city in several thousand years and that was at the site of an old one.

Oldbloods I think are probably good enough that you'll get a couple early on when you can't afford a Slann a turn. If no-one is using them I'll either make them build anywhere or a summon though - I don't want them to go the way of the lord warden et al.

The sacred spawnings make sense as being fairly numerous, being entire spawnings created to fulfil a task. But they may well be too cheap.

[Globu]

Hi Sombre,

Mostly a lurker around here, but I thought I'd pipe up with a thought.

I'm playing an Itza SP game on the Glory map, and quite enjoying it -- great work. (Incidentally, I've never played WFB, but your mod here has given me a compulsion to buy and paint up some skinks.)

The saurus commanders, though -- it struck me as somewhat thematically-inappropriate that they can wear armor. I mean, I know the devs have taken a fairly permissive approach in that regard, so it's not the biggest issue in the world, but doesn't that also make for extreme ease in getting high-prot thugs? As in, simple fire plate giving an oldblood 24 prot, and a simple saurus cmdr 21. Either by themselves wouldn't inspire me to post about it, but it seems to my admittedly inexperienced eyes (I've only played SP) that built-in ironbane-/rust-proof medium-to-high-infantry-level armor composed of spikes and ridges and all that shouldn't accommodate magic armor, particularly when mass protection and all that sort of thing starts getting laid down.

As it stands, I almost feel kinda dirty, getting into year 5 in my game, throwing armor on those puppies, affordable as they are.

It might all balance out, and I'm not sure how that would affect the Ceremonial Plates armor you use for them, but I thought I'd throw that out there as an early impression. I could just be overestimating.

Also, just a thought in regard to the domsummon thing, forgive me if someone already mentioned it and I missed it, but would a good balance be, instead of domsummon, having the dormant forms have a Summon Allies ability?

Anyway, love the mod. Speaking SP- and flavor-wise, I quite love the little skinks and the variety, and was pleasantly surprised with the waterforms. It's all quite wicked.

Cheers!
Globu

[Humakty]

Having also toyed with saurus thugs, I don't think they're that hot. The mounted ones with recuperation, who are indeed powerfull, are cap only and compete with the cap only meta powerfull mage, so you probably won't field many of them, just the ones you bought during the first turns. Regarding the recruitable everywhere, the stats aren't anything extraordinary, they have no magic, so they're just ok as thugs. Tons of nations have thugs that just dwarven saurus commanders. eck, I even prefer ulm black knights, they just need a blade and shield to start being usefull.

Plus, you shall not forget those guys are cold blooded, and are to be used with great care, fatigue being a great thug killer.

[Globu]

You're right on the basic saurus commanders -- by no means special. I mostly had in mind the summonable commanders in regard to that, and kind of lumped in the basic 20-gold recruitable cmdr with 'em without thinking.

But, for sure, I hadn't really taken cold-blooded into consideration.

As for the 4th Gen Slanns, I know, at least playing on the Glory map into year 5, I haven't found it worthwhile to get one except maybe once every two or three turns -- they're just too expensive to get one every turn -- so I get the oldbloods on other turns, and they do feel quite powerful (again, to the point that I feel a twinge of guilt throwing a cheap ol' fire plate on them and seeing the prot go to 24). But as for the 4th Gen Slanns, is it really practical that one will get one of those 850-gold monsters every turn?

I'll pipe up later when I've played it deeper if I have more putatively-worthwhile feedback on it.

[Humakty]

I think the special saurus commander summons have one big advantage : you'll always be able to field loads of them, as you can summon one kind per magic 'color' . All having different bonuses. The big advantage of this faction is its special spells completness. It ensures you a very good midgame.

[rdonj]

I will agree there, you have a very decent midgame between powerful battle magic and the sacred saurus summons, especially when sombre gets the armored versions in so you don't need as crazy of a bless anymore :P

[Sombre]

I have just had what you might call a cunning idea. It was inspired by what Burnsaber has done with the Runeguard in his Dwarfs mod. Namely, he made them summonable along with the anvil of doom, but otherwise unrecruitable.

So here's the idea: Temple Guard, which were going to be made cap only, should instead be entirely unrecruitable, and you get a certain number of them ONLY when you recruit (or summon) a Slann. That way they aren't limited entirely to the cap, they only come along with Slann and you never have Slann without having them.

So how to do this? Simple. When you first get a Slann (let's say a 5th gen recruitable one), he comes in an 'Awakening' form, which autosummons temple guard. This awakening form turns into a regular Slann the very next turn, which no longer summons dudes. The regular slann behaves in exactly the same way as they have been previously.

What's exciting about this concept is that it so perfectly fits what temple guard are all about. They are directly proportionate to the number of Slann you have, without being a never ending stream of spawned guys. If you want to use them, you gotta buy Slann, if you want to buy Slann, you're going to use the temple guard. It also helps people cope with how crazy expensive Slann are, since you get 'free' bodyguards.

This method might also work VERY well with non mage commanders, the kind no-one wants to buy. Attempts to solve this problem have taken the form of summon allies or autospawning troops, giving them onebattlespell of summoning some guys for fighting, etc. But these methods are, in their own way, somewhat exploitable and a little 'messy'. Instead of these methods, why not have, let's say,... a Skaven Warlord, who when you buy him, appears in a 'mustering' form, which then autosummons a bunch of troops. It then shifts back into a normal skaven warlord and acts normally. So essentially you get a bunch of troops free for the cost of not recruiting a mage, but you ONLY GET THEM ONCE. No more endless summoning of troops, no more economies which ignore gold, no more having to fight 30 commanders who spawn combat summons over and over again with all their losses being completely expendable.

Interesting non?

[llamabeast]

Extremely interesting. Good thinking Sombre!

[kennydicke]

Sombre

It was inspired by what Burnsaber has done with the Runeguard in his Dwarfs mod.

I liked his new changes, for the thematic concerns.

This awakening form turns into a regular Slann the very next turn, which no longer summons dudes. The regular slann behaves in exactly the same way as they have been previously.

It sounds very cool, but how can you do this? A landshape?

What's exciting about this concept is that it so perfectly fits what temple guard are all about.

Yes, very thematic as I understand the WFB Lizardmen.

It also helps people cope with how crazy expensive Slann are, since you get 'free' bodyguards.

Hmm, I always buy an expensive one and one-three cheaper Slann every turn by year two - maybe my methods are inefficient? I've always got so much gold...

This method might also work VERY well with non mage commanders, the kind no-one wants to buy.

Definitely.

Interesting non?

To me, extremely.