How to not die

[Baalz]

I'm not sure what exactly the point you are arguing is. My point: spells & tactics which increase your attack/defense/fatigue advantage can be more effective in some situations than the typical SC/artillery configurations most people tend to goto. Sure, you could have basalt kings with construction-6 researched. And some alteration researched to make him actually useful. And conjuration (earthpower). And have invested in a strong blessing. And have the gems and spent the time to forge appropriate SC gear. And have him where you need him. And your opponent doesn't have nasty SC counters (charm, a couple bishop fish spamming smite, etc.) Or....maybe one of those things isn't true and instead you're trying to figure out how to stop an attack with a couple gems and stuff you've recruited out of your border fort.

Sure, "standard" tactics like kitting out a Basalt King can be very effective, that's why they're standard tactics. You're really limiting yourself by not being open to using other tactics though when they make sense - which includes the fact that you're not doing exactly what your opponent expects.

I also don't understand what your reluctance is about using early magic. It's an opportunity cost, obviously, but many an early war can be turned by a couple mages dropping early spells like numbness or tangling vines precisely because early wars usually involve smaller number of troops so countering 10-20 troops can be a very big deal. Obviously it's a bad idea to try and tag slingers with numbness....but I'm seldom much worried about pulling my mages out to stop a slinger rush. That's, admittedly a snarky way to phrase your position, but really what you're saying is "there are lots of situations where numbess isn't gonna cut it". No arguments from me on that one, but I think you're vastly underestimating how often a dozen or two super elite units are dominating the early battlefields.

[thejeff]

2 points.
First Basalt Kings are perfectly useful with minimal Const 4 gear & Summon Earthpower. No bless needed.

Second, I think what might be being missed in this discussion is that these overlooked tactics and spells aren't main research goals and strategies. You don't plan to get Numbness and Friendly Currents to conquer the world. Standard tactics aren't standard because they're best in every situation, but because they work pretty well in most situations.
These are more for situations where you don't have your big guns available or they aren't appropriate and you need to come up with something else you can put together fast. Like a lot of cheap troops, a Wavebreaker and a couple of cheap mages or Ice Pebble staves spamming Numbness.

[Baalz]

No, I disagree, which is kind of my point. These are very competitive tactics that most people overlook, and depending on the circumstance can often be a more effective use of your resources. It's kind of silly to say they aren't main research goals when we're not discussing a specific nation or strategy...so which path is it that you think is better to always research? You unlock lots of spells with your research choices, it's very misleading to suggest that the opportunity cost is so high.

If you are speaking specifically about the Atlantis example I think alteration is, in fact a very high priority for early research because of the way underwater combat works. Finally, as we keep coming back this Basalt King thing: tell me how many gems/gold/mages(forging and fighting) to stop 20 dual blessed knights of the deep with a couple bishop fish spamming smite. Construction 4 with no bless or alteration using the gems you've accumulated in the time it takes for Oceana to swim over to your territory? Good luck with that, I'm not clever enough to figure out how to do it. Even if you do have the luxury to get the gems and research you're still sharply limiting your strategy to insist on depending on one or two guys who move around one territory at a time rather than striking from whichever fort is closest with stuff you can recruit in one turn (assuming you had research mages there anyway)

[thejeff]

What I meant by main research goals is not that there is some path that is better for all nations, but that since these tactics seem to be geared towards the nature of your enemy, rather than your own strengths. That makes them seem more opportunistic to me, since you don't know when you start researching who that's going to be. Build on your strengths, when you know who you're going to fight and what he's likely to field figure out what you've already got or can get quickly that'll work against it.
As you said "depending on circumstances."

I'm certainly not saying they aren't good tactics and I'm probably guilty of overlooking them most of the time.

Deep ones and Numbness might be a good counter to blessed Knights of the Deep, but they don't fare so well against R'lyeh's mindblasters and chaff. Nor against archers if you're trying to move onto the land.

[Illuminated One]

Originally Posted by Baalz

I'm not sure what exactly the point you are arguing is. My point: spells & tactics which increase your attack/defense/fatigue advantage can be more effective in some situations than the typical SC/artillery configurations most people tend to goto. Sure, you could have basalt kings with construction-6 researched. And some alteration researched to make him actually useful. And conjuration (earthpower). And have invested in a strong blessing. And have the gems and spent the time to forge appropriate SC gear. And have him where you need him. And your opponent doesn't have nasty SC counters (charm, a couple bishop fish spamming smite, etc.) Or....maybe one of those things isn't true and instead you're trying to figure out how to stop an attack with a couple gems and stuff you've recruited out of your border fort.

I'm not arguing that they can't be effective or even more effective than anything else. My two points are that they are situational (which we don't argue about I guess) and that they are not useful early on.
...

I also don't understand what your reluctance is about using early magic. It's an opportunity cost, obviously, but many an early war can be turned by a couple mages dropping early spells like numbness or tangling vines precisely because early wars usually involve smaller number of troops so countering 10-20 troops can be a very big deal. Obviously it's a bad idea to try and tag slingers with numbness....but I'm seldom much worried about pulling my mages out to stop a slinger rush. That's, admittedly a snarky way to phrase your position, but really what you're saying is "there are lots of situations where numbess isn't gonna cut it". No arguments from me on that one, but I think you're vastly underestimating how often a dozen or two super elite units are dominating the early battlefields.

...
I'm reluctant because I have "used" (by used I mean scripted, what the AI used instead is a different pair of shoes) these things and have been very disappointed. Tangle Vines, Earth Grip, Destruction, Numbness (actually I didn't use it but I just ran a test with it against my troop only strat against Mictlan 20f and the troop only strat was better). These spells are great in theory or set piece battles (like against indies) but not against a player where you don't know how he plays.
Tangle Vines for example has a very limited range, so you w9 sacreds or heavy cav can be tearing through your ranks before you even get the 1st in or waiting outside your range while your mage fatigues himself out.
Numbness is better (but it's effect are less) but when your enemy brings in a couple of slingers in addition to his sacreds and sets it up right your mages will numbness the slingers (I didn't think there could have been any misunderstanding about "slinger rushes" when I said "fire and retreat)" and his sacreds will then come to kill you.
The other thing is that it doesn't get better with smaller armies. Going from the idea that if you take extra troops instead of mages and exploit the attack boost from surrounding it's clear that this works worse when you can't surround the enemy and half of your army is idling behind others. So if you have 500 guys it's likely better to add 5 mages casting numbness instead of 100 other guys. But if you have 40 units it's not likely that 20 others have to stay behind others.

Now the other thing is that later on where you can get the mass or extra spells to make this a good strategy there are a lot of other options and you have to compare it to the other options you (could) have. Falling Frost will kill many of the things that are vulnerable to numbness for example and many more. Of course when you are defending a fort with what you have they can be your best bet, but that's not something to base your strategy on imo.

[Baalz]

So, basically what you're saying is that you have difficulty making the spells useful at a tactical level? This is an art in and of itself, all I can say is that I have many times used these types of strategies against real live players who were not just doing stupid stuff. If those sacred cavalry are going to tear me up then they have to come up and engage at some point. Sure, there's a dance to getting what you want to land on the units you want it to land on, but it's far from impossible.

You keep coming up with situations that are pretty poor candidates for this stuff. I have a hard time thinking of a matchup where numbness would do worse than Mictlan. You agree this is situational, so why don't we look at situations where it does make sense.

If 20 elephants come at you in an early you are way, way better having a few guys spamming bonds of fire or sleep or false fetters than you are having 20% more troops (or whatever).

If 5 E/N blessed niefels can chew through basically an unlimited amount of the troops you have available the difference of putting a couple guys spamming star fires or dessication or lightning bolt is way, way better than throwing more guys at them.

If your guys just can't handle that +2 awe wyrm rampaging around early year one, tossing curse and some decays or berserkers or magma bolts can make a huge difference.

If those 20+ defense glamoured Vans are scoffing at your poor guys, tagging them with numbness or earth meld makes a huge difference rather than a few more guys who keep missing.

Lanka or Eriu dropping mistformed regenerating thugs out of the sky to ruin your day? Spit some flame bolts at them, or mind burn, or....whatever!

etc. etc. etc.

Sure, sometimes more troops are better - its no surprise at all that tangling vines don't help much against a hoard of screaming jaguar warriors. Plenty of times though a few guys casting an early spell is the right tool for the job and is massively more effective than just dumping more troops into the fight.

[Sombre]

Decay works on a wyrm? I thought they had crazy high age.

Oh and if you like numbness, see also Slime, especially in CBM.

[Squirrelloid]

I can vouch for alteration being something Atlantis is going to research anyway. BK thug/SCs are not going to do squat against KotD, even with a good bless (E9N4 no help, even if you give the BK armor + 2x bracers to use the +4 protection 3x). Casting earth meld, numbness, and boil (and Destruction/Ironbane eventually, but not necessary) from behind an infantry screen will kill KotDs. Alteration is your go to school for UW combat.

Construction 4 will get you wavebreaker, which replaces the need to actually research friendly currents. Its a priority (and Enchantment isn't a very good school for you anyway until you can get some serious research done). I'd get at least Alt 2 first, however. (You can also make staves of numbness to give to non-mage commanders so your mages can cast the important stuff - like earth meld.)