Dramatica - A Very Dramatic Game. Game on.

[Gregstrom]

Originally Posted by Burnsaber

Hopefully you compared te Themiskyra numbers against CBM v1.6 (not 1.5 which, IIRC is in the latest Compactibilty index). CBM 1.6 takes a *lot* more weapon slots.

Themiskyra has no custom weapons or armours

I've also taken the CBM 1.6 and Dwarfs 0.8 and dropped them into my author's version of the Compatibility Index. I may soon have enough free time to do a proper update of it...

Balance-wise, I think Themiskyra is weak for LA and its magic is worse by comparison in the MA.

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by Aethyr

I'll take Pan.

Twobits decided to step down due to time constraits, so you can have Shinuyama.

I have conacted Alpine Joe about the tenth spot in the game.

Originally Posted by Gregstrom

Balance-wise, I think Themiskyra is weak for LA and its magic is worse by comparison in the MA.

I have taken a look at Themiskyra and some things really sttod out for me. I like the theme of the nation and the epic mish-mash of several mythoes. However:

1) Poison Bows on gold cost 12 archers: No no. Sauromatia has enough of those bug-abuse weapons for Dom3, IMHO. Replace with short bows (the Pegasus Riders could keep them, though, it's not as bad on a 50g sacred unit).

2) Alchemist summon (attract Alchemist): I don't really see how this guy/gal is really thematic in any way. Besides, he is majorly undercosted, he will pay himself back in forge savings in 3 turns. Besides, him being in construction is a bit too much of "having your cake and eating it too" synergy. I also think that he'll also be overpowered when combined with your many national thug/SC summons. I'd really just get away with him/her.

3) Caryatid summon. 20 astral gems for a mapmove 3 sacred golem-esque that cannot be mind dueled? I'd be a bit more comfortable with her at 25 gems.

4) Rite of Exposed Children: 36 blood slaves for a thuggable A4 mage. Seems.. really cheap. 72 (2x the cost) Would be more like it.

5) Wishing Stars: 3 soul slays at A1S1 (much easier to spam and to get high penetration value). Sure it's not 100 prec, but I'd say it's way too good nevertheless. I'd just get rid of it, since I'm not really seeing how it is thematical in any way.

Do you agree with my proposed changes?

[Gregstrom]

1) I agree the poison bows are a bit uber, but they are the only stand-out infantry unit Themiskyra has. Str 9 + spear is otherwise the limit of Themiskyra's infantry ability, and that's not exactly great. I'd like to reach some sort of compromise here.

2) S2W1 is sorta reachable for Themiskyra, and yeah - the forge bonus is a biggie. 15 pearls is pretty cheap for that, even with no clams. 20 pearls, no forge bonus?

3) The caryatid lacks the golem's biggest bonus, teleportation. It's lower on hits and just can't raid in the same way. I'll put it up to 25, and I guess I'll see if it's worth casting.

4) That's 36 slaves + 20 N gems for GoR - the Storm Children don't come out as commanders. Oh, and you need to do some empowering before you can cast it. Is that still underpriced?

5) Wishing Stars is pretty much the only spammable damage spell Themiskyra has, given their weak paths. And they get it later than other nations get the standard spammable unpleasantnesses Themiskyra just can't cast on the battlefield. As previously, I'd rather work out a compromise - increased fatigue? Reduced precision?

[Alpine Joe]

If its all the same to you guys, I would like to give the dwarves a warhammer colleague by playing Skaven....

If someone has a problem with that, please let me know.

[Burnsaber]

Sorry if I'm sounding a bit blunt here, but I really don't have the time now for dealing with extraordinary amounts of balancing stuff. I just want to get the game started.

Originally Posted by Gregstrom

1) I agree the poison bows are a bit uber, but they are the only stand-out infantry unit Themiskyra has. Str 9 + spear is otherwise the limit of Themiskyra's infantry ability, and that's not exactly great. I'd like to reach some sort of compromise here.

Erh.. If you need to have single absolutely overpowered unit in order to have "stand-out" infantry unit, the nation is broken. Poison Bows are just too uber. Even if they costed like 20/25 gold they'd be the only thing you'd recruit. IMHO, it's not like the nation really needs them, you have Shadow Vestals and other nice sacreds afterall.

My final offer is to give them short bows and perhaps -1 gold cost. It's not like 11gold per piece prec 12 archers would be "bad". Certainly above average.

Originally Posted by Gregstrom

2) S2W1 is sorta reachable for Themiskyra, and yeah - the forge bonus is a biggie. 15 pearls is pretty cheap for that, even with no clams. 20 pearls, no forge bonus?

Sounds good, I can accept thse terms. But I really can't understand why you'd want to keep them in. The summon just feels like absolute meta-game "unit", shoehorned in just so that the nation could have a unit with forge bonus. (at least when I summoned one, it was a total mood killer. It *might* fit as a summon for MA Ulm/ Bogarus, but not this nation).

Originally Posted by Gregstrom

The caryatid lacks the golem's biggest bonus, teleportation. It's lower on hits and just can't raid in the same way. I'll put it up to 25, and I guess I'll see if it's worth casting.

Mapmove 3 is a big fix for that, just give it flying boots and it should have 0% problems in the movement front. Besides, E+H is a *lot* better buffing paths than S (and removes the achilles heel of Mind Duel).

Originally Posted by Gregstrom

4) That's 36 slaves + 20 N gems for GoR - the Storm Children don't come out as commanders. Oh, and you need to do some empowering before you can cast it. Is that still underpriced?

Eh, when I casted it, I got one as a commander + four of them as troops. I'll try it again this evening to see if I just hit some bug or something.

Empowering or not, 20 nature gems is really cheap for A4 thugmage. That's really close to Air Queen level of awesome (especially considering that they have slots for both air boosters)

Originally Posted by Gregstrom

5) Wishing Stars is pretty much the only spammable damage spell Themiskyra has, given their weak paths. And they get it later than other nations get the standard spammable unpleasantnesses Themiskyra just can't cast on the battlefield. As previously, I'd rather work out a compromise - increased fatigue? Reduced precision?

Eh, if it's really necessary to keep that spell, I'd say that +10 fatigue and -2 prec should make it a bit less offending (but, *shrug* it's not like you'd cast it without reverse communioning "Power of the Spheres" and "Aim").

Does this nation have a thread anywhere, btw? I'd like to give some feedback on the nation. For me, the nation seems thematically nice (excluding some misses), but the some of the graphics and gameplay element could really use improvement.

Originally Posted by Alpine Joe

If its all the same to you guys, I would like to give the dwarves a warhammer colleague by playing Skaven....

If someone has a problem with that, please let me know.

Depends on how does it fit. If it clashes with Themiskyra I won't allow it (it shouldn't clash with Dwarfs + CBM). I'll test it today/tomorrow.

[Gregstrom]

1. Hokay, although I'd prefer 12 gold and a composite bow. My view on Themiskyra's melee infantry is that they're competent but just don't really hurt anything - you have to rely on sonething else to actually kill enemies.

2. The alchemist has useful paths... that's about it, though. I don't know if I'll ever get around to summoning one, but as this is the first time I've taken Themiskyra into MP I'd rather not suffer from not having the option. Oddly, there is a weak thematic link here. The Scythians (Amazons being in theory an offshoot of the Scythians/Sarmatians) were at one point in their history home to some pretty advanced metallurgists.

4. I could've sworn I only got non-commanders... it was a while ago, though. I'll take your word for it then, and double up the cost.

5. I'll put those in. Aim I can see, and I guess I can see casting PotS and LotNS for the +1 pen. I guess we'll see if it compares well to Soul Slay (I think it may be a bit better against thugs/SCs, but maybe not as good against armies).

Edit: maybe Gifts from Heaven is a better comparison? Same low acc. (with the changes, at least), 3 effects, but GfH has more AoE and doesn't give a save.

The only thread for Themiskyra is http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43683 - it was originally Frank Trollman's mod.

[Burnsaber]

In general news, Skaven seem to work with Themiskyra. I'll put the game up on llamaserver once I manage to decide my own nation.

Originally Posted by Gregstrom

1. Hokay, although I'd prefer 12 gold and a composite bow. My view on Themiskyra's melee infantry is that they're competent but just don't really hurt anything - you have to rely on sonething else to actually kill enemies.

Well, I guess it would be closer to original intent to give them very good archers. 12gcost 12 prec composites make me uneasy though, especially when combined with the cost-effective sacreds (Shadow Vestals are a must recruit even without a bless).

Absolute final offer (take it or leave it): 13gcost composites.

Originally Posted by Gregstrom

Oddly, there is a weak thematic link here. The Scythians (Amazons being in theory an offshoot of the Scythians/Sarmatians) were at one point in their history home to some pretty advanced metallurgists.

Oh, didn't know that. Makes a bit more sense now. The description could use work though to actually convey this connection.

Originally Posted by Gregstrom

4. I could've sworn I only got non-commanders... it was a while ago, though. I'll take your word for it then, and double up the cost.

I tested it again and figured out the problem. It likely has wrong effect number (to summon commanders instead of troops). If you quickfix it to actual intent (5 as troops), I could go with a cost of 50. Then the price of one A4 mage would be about 10 blood + 20 nature and about 1.3x "good" mage turns, which could be considered okay with the hassle of research and possible empowering. One option would be to reduce their magic to A3 and perhaps even reduce the cost for the summon to 32 (this would make a bit more like a troop summon instead of half-done thugmage summon).

Originally Posted by Gregstrom

5. I'll put those in. Aim I can see, and I guess I can see casting PotS and LotNS for the +1 pen. I guess we'll see if it compares well to Soul Slay (I think it may be a bit better against thugs/SCs, but maybe not as good against armies).

Edit: maybe Gifts from Heaven is a better comparison? Same low acc. (with the changes, at least), 3 effects, but GfH has more AoE and doesn't give a save.

Eh, Gifts is a lot harder to cast and very fatiguing to boot. You do have a bit point though on the combat magic for the nation being suck. I'd reduce the spell to researchlevel 7 (but keep the other nerfs).

I also noticed some bugs that you might want to fix. The Valkyrie has two shields, but no armor. Likely the "kite shield" is meant to be chain cuirass or something. Also, the Strom Children have bugged slots (2 heads? I'd guess the intent was 1 head, 1 body + 4 misc slots) The Elemental Armors on Onyx Amazons are also odd, but intended I guess.

So yeah, if you do these tweaks, I'd be okay with the nation being in game.

[FAJ]

I am gonna have to do some research just to figure out what the heck I am facing here!

[Burnsaber]

Game is up one the llamaserver. I chose C'tis as my nation.

I'll add the dwarf mod to the game tomorrow (I just want to make sure that there is no need for last-minute fixes). Themiskyra will be up when it is done.

Originally Posted by FAJ

I am gonna have to do some research just to figure out what the heck I am facing here!

That would be wise. The sudden inclusion of 3 mod nations in a 10 player game might be a bit overwhelming, so I've summed up the nations very briefly here.

Skaven


Skaven has been in many games and is pretty much guarantied balance. It has somewhat weak military and mages, but awesome mid & late game summons. Lots of stealth potential but units are quite fragile. If you face them, you should try to use troops that are expendable (elite troops are a poor choice, due to their poison weapons) but have a lot of attacks. Being also vary of steath attacks shoul also help.

Dwarfs

This is the nations first MP game, so there might be some balance issues. However, my feedback in the thread has mostly been about improving them somehow, so I'm quite confident that they are fine (if they are not, it is adviced to handle like the nation would be Ashdod) . Dwarf military is likely best in the game, but cost a lot of gold and resources. All of their castles also cost 1200gold and take 4 turns to build. It is in essence, a slow nation to get rolling and is likely to play defensively, especially considering the good PD.

They have mages with forgebonus (gee, what a shocker), but only medicore diversity and only really strong magic in earth. Also, their most powerful mages have casting encumberance of 13!, limiting the magic support they can give to their troops. This is not a nation that throws fireballs around in the battlefield. You should note though that they have very heavy artilley unit at enchantent 7, "Anvil of Doom" that can do all sorts of crazy stuff. Be prepared!

If you face dwarfs, you should use shielded chaff troops to negate the effectiveness of their excellent crossbow archers (and ranger throwing axes!) and kill the melee forces with appropiate selection of magic. Anything that does AN/AP damage will do fine (poison, combustion, star fire/stellar cascades, numbness, gifts from heaven, fireball, lightning spells), try to avoid mr-negates effects due to their high mr and drain dominion. Be careful when using thugs or big sized troops against them, since they excellent counter to those in the form of slayers (who are weak to archery, try fire largest to target them since they have some extra hp when compared to other infantry).

Themiskyra

Again, facing it's first MP game, so it is possible that balacne issues may arise. However, this nation has the "advantage" of mostly consisting of slightly altered vanilla troops, making it a lot easier to assess its balance.

Basically, Themiskyra has access to all of the independent amazon units (with some boosts) and some female warriors from several nations (like Valkyries and Shadow Vestals as cap-only troops). Their mages and priests basically consist of the amazon priestesse's and sorceresse's, giving them good magical diversity but laughable power in all of them. However, they have strong national summons for more magic power and SC/thug access.

They'll have good archers and quite solid infantry that trouble dealing damage likely supported by some sacred troops. The key to defeating them would likely lie with abusing their lack of battle magic to the fullest.

[FAJ]

Do the dwarfs have black powder weapons? I have played warhammer for many years, so I am familiar with the backstory and flavor of both those nations.

I hate the idea of needing chaff against them, though! Abysian chaff isnt really chaff, and independants tend to fatigue or catch on fire!