MP: Setsumi - Come for the game, stay for the drama!

[Quitti]

Originally Posted by Ossa

... until Science took over, the old player forgot to teach him properly the existing NAPs and Zeldor talked him into attacking my.

True enough, but such is diplomacy. I could have attacked you too, but that again would have made Ermor easily the most powerful nation. R'lyeh jumped the chance and now Kuritza is ranting about how Ermor is imbalanced and never again shall he play the game with Ermor and so on. I didn't want that. I was very much against Ermor around 10-15 turns ago, had plenty of armies on his border, and was ready to attack, then the fiasco with the staling occured. Basically what happened was that everyone was *****ing about everything, so I decided to stand back and let actions speak for themselves in-game for other players - so far I know that Man has attacked Ermor, and supposedly Abysia too.

I guess he's implying that while it is fun if Ermor wins, it would be even more fun if all living nations would unite against a common enemy.

And make him the top nation? How would that exactly change the situation? Then me or you would've needed to start a rantfest about how Man is overpowered and must be attacked, or I will never play a game with Man again since he's had time to grow with good strategic choices.

I like the new thread title by the way

[Kuritza]

Originally Posted by SciencePro

Wow is that a load of bull. What fantasy universe are you living in? Kuritza, if you wanted me to help you all you would have had to do is get one of the other major powers on your side and ask me nicely to join with the two of you against Ermor. Right up until this latest drama/whining rampage you were in a great position to leverage your second-strongest empire into building a three-way or four-way alliance and setting yourself up to win the game.

But instead you have decided to continue criticizing and name-calling and generally being a gaping a-hole.

Buy a clue dude: that’s not how you get people to help you!

If you had been friendly and communicative I would have helped you. I am pretty sure the others would have helped you too and you would have won the game. But now your jerky behavior has bought you an enemy.

The dark lords of R’lyeh will not rest until every denizen of the Towers of Chelms is banished forever to the void of unending blackness. Prepare for war, Man!

I asked you nicely many times. You and Quitty. You did nothing. Oh, both of you said 'yes, of course we will fight Ermor'. And kept doing nothing or attacking other players. Load of bull? HELL YES.

If you are going to attack me, this ruins the game completely. Its so much easier to make up some dumb reason and attack these who fight Ermor, while attacking Ermor is so... scary, yes?

Grats, coward.

Zeldor, you have won. THE most undesereved victory ever - these (so tempted to use this word) did nothing to stop you, and now Rlyeh will stop me, as he did with Marignon before.
I am out of here. I tried to open their eyes by reasoning and by critizising. But this is the worst game I ever played.

And if you are still 'not convinced LA Ermor is OP', just watch the graphs again. Yes, your opponents played badly, but this is also a large part of the game. There are many unskilled players; you started surrounded by them, and they even staled. Under such conditions, any nation gets very strong, but LA Ermor simply wins.

This would be different had me and Isokron (I fought him and I can say he is good) started near you... but this game is a proof that 'automatic gang-style balance' doesnt work; instead of joining against common treat, silly people turtle and hope they wont be next. This is why LA Ermor has more than twice the number of victories than its closest competitor. Yes, more than twice because HOF is not updaded anymore, I checked that. And thats even despite LA Ermor is often banned from games.

[Kuritza]

Originally Posted by Quitti

And make him the top nation? How would that exactly change the situation? Then me or you would've needed to start a rantfest about how Man is overpowered and must be attacked, or I will never play a game with Man again since he's had time to grow with good strategic choices.

I like the new thread title by the way

Are are nuts?

I am not LA Ermor. I dont have thousands of free units rising from their graves every turn. And I would surely suffer very, VERY heavy losses by spearheading the attack on Ermor's hub of power, while you and Rlyeh could get some Ermorian lands (he cant really defend against us all) and grow stronger.
And yes, then you could unite against me. I've seen this happen, in games with, you know... experienced players. Leaders come and go, and this is what makes Dominions fun. Turtling and complaining how you cant win anyway wont teach you anything.

... nothing will.

[Kuritza]

Originally Posted by Quitti

Still, pointers. I like arranging things into numbers or such, it seems.

Pointers from you. How cute.

Originally Posted by Quitti

1) Haven't you been "minding your own business"? I haven't seen you attack Ermor before now. I've seen you state over and over how imbalanced LA Ermor is, and I agree that in this point Ermor is a very very good nation. So would be Niefelheim, or Hinnom, or Sauromatia in similar position. Or Marignon.

I had NO opportunity to attack Ermor. I had no border with him, and still working on getting one (Caelums castles are between me and him, I just stop his hordes by sending SCs while my armies siege castles).

Originally Posted by Quitti

2) I agree with Zeldor, LA Marignon should have absolutely no trouble with LA Ermor if played in anti-ermorian way (holy pyre, h3 recruit anywhere priests, excellent line holders against undead chaff - royal guards).

He did. But Ermor has TOO MUCH spawn. For a while, trivial tactics you described seemed to work, but then rigor mortis, darkness (not sure Zeldor had to use it, but still) and Ermor's own SCs changed that.

Originally Posted by Quitti

I was certain Zeldor would be gone after Marignon started attacking him, and I started hearing stuff about Seraphs, but alas, no. Either Zeldor has some tricks up his sleeve I do not know of and deserves to win anyway since it'd have to be something awesomely good, or the player for Marignon didn't fully realize the potential of his nation.

Zeldor plays better than Ossa, for sure. But one cant fight overgrown LA Ermor alone, and Ossa asked for help, repeatedly. I guaranteed you and Caelum that I wont attack you if you attack Ermor, and even promised SC support.
Speaking of being nice and diplomatic... you just ignored me and turtled. Ermor is scary, ha ha.

Originally Posted by Quitti

3) I could do damage to Ermor, but he could counter my forces easily enough. I could counter Ermors forces easily should he attack me. I've got counters for any SC's he could throw at me, and I have a counters for any chaff he could ever throw at me. The problem is that I wouldn't gain anything by attacking fully forted nation, it'd take 2-5 turns to take each fort, and I could probably maintain reasonable siege against 4 forts per turn. Now, what does ermor lose with a castle? Gem income, which he doesn't much need, and which I don't much need. He wouldn't lose any income. I wouldn't gain any. He could take potshots with stealthy mages, teleporting SC's, longrange spells, and I would lose troops, he'd lose few SC's and mages eventually, but the point is that he wouldn't be throwing anything critical at me, unless in sufficient masses to really crush the force. Basically it boils down to being an horrible attrition war, which neither of us would enjoy or gain anything out of.

Lots of crap.
Ermor needs land to get spawn, and gems. Ossa needed help. By fighting Ermor you'd give Ossa some breathing space, and most importantly, if you dont stop Ermor, whatever the cost, he kills you. I told that before, nobody believed me. I turned out to be right, but you are too stubborn to accept it.
Oh, and about you being able to defend against Ermor.... What a sad joke.

Originally Posted by Quitti

4) I never said I wouldn't be playing for winning the game, but when the situation is that there is no feasible way of winning the game, I do not play for attempting to win it anymore. I play for having fun. If I have a reasonable chance to win, I push for it.

You lost your chance to win this game as soon as Ermor started growing so fast and his neighbours, including you, didnt do anything about it.

Originally Posted by Quitti

5) I already stated that I should have attacked Ermor in the very early game. I made a mistake there. I might very well be in top nations now had I done it. I also might as well be very well conquered by you or Mictlan or heck, Patala. I just had an easy way to expand south and I took it. That took the first ~40 turns for me.

I already stated that I promised not to attack anyone who attacks Ermor.

Originally Posted by Quitti

6) I've played with LA Ermor in a MP game, actually still am, but I'm not a major force.

Yep, Ermor takes skill to play right, just like any other nation.

Originally Posted by Quitti

7) Attacking Ermor now would give you a definite edge, and no-one else. Period.

Ganging on Ermor gives everyone an edge. And not trying to stop the leader is game-ruining.

Also, what is this "everyones war against Ermor" you talk of? Are you attempting to say with all this that the game can not be fun if Ermor wins?[/quote]
I am saying that watching Ermor defeat everyone one by one and not even trying to win is not fun. What you do is much worse than just going AI.

Ok, now thats it. Zeldor can declare himself a winner, if his conscience allows it after everything that happened here.

[Quitti]

Originally Posted by Kuritza

Pointers from you. How cute.

Thank you for being constructive.

I had NO opportunity to attack Ermor. I had no border with him, and still working on getting one (Caelums castles are between me and him, I just stop his hordes by sending SCs while my armies siege castles).

I offered you a way to attack him/said I was open for such negotiations. You did not take the chance. Do not blame me for this.

He did. But Ermor has TOO MUCH spawn. For a while, trivial tactics you described seemed to work, but then rigor mortis, darkness (not sure Zeldor had to use it, but still) and Ermor's own SCs changed that.

Yes. All true. With enough chaff to fill the battlefield, Ermor could very well beat pretty much anything. But that requires that he'd pool everything he has into few single armies, which he has troubles to do (lots of MM, ferrying troops, nothing undoable though). With the forces I saw battling (Again, I did not see everything, but I did see a lot) Ermor certainly did not have several thousand undead per every fight. By the time Ermor has Rigor Mortis, Marignon should very easily have Solar Brilliance (counters darkness too, from what I remember) very easily. This is only one of many counters for those. Also, Mind Hunts. I believe you've heard of them.

Zeldor plays better than Ossa, for sure. But one cant fight overgrown LA Ermor alone, and Ossa asked for help, repeatedly. I guaranteed you and Caelum that I wont attack you if you attack Ermor, and even promised SC support.

Again true, but I had no way of knowing if you'd keep your word. In addition there was still aggressive mictlan south of me, and abysia south of him and north of me.

Speaking of being nice and diplomatic... you just ignored me and turtled. Ermor is scary, ha ha.

I fought (somewhat single-sided, I admit) wars, after which I could've struck Ermor with very little effect, since I didn't have anything to counter (immortal) SC's. I got that counter ready around 5-10 turns ago, which is too late.

Lots of crap.
Ermor needs land to get spawn, and gems. Ossa needed help. By fighting Ermor you'd give Ossa some breathing space, and most importantly, if you dont stop Ermor, whatever the cost, he kills you. I told that before, nobody believed me. I turned out to be right, but you are too stubborn to accept it.
Oh, and about you being able to defend against Ermor.... What a sad joke.

Like stated, against a battlefield full of undead (meaning 2k-3k+ per fight) I'd struggle, probably lose too. I have national access to d3 mages, w3 mages and s3 mages. All very well capable of countering hordes of chaff, and sc's. Out of his dominion I can fight against his immortal stuff, inside it there's not much point.

You lost your chance to win this game as soon as Ermor started growing so fast and his neighbours, including you, didnt do anything about it.

True, Like I said, I should've done something earlier, which led ultimately into me losing.

I already stated that I promised not to attack anyone who attacks Ermor.

Again, words. Promises can be broken. It would've been counterproductive to you attack me while I was attacking Ermor, since it would've strengthened your position considerably, I admit that. Which again leaves my southern/northern borders, and R'lyeh whom with I've had absolutely no contact regarding to anything, peace or war.

Yep, Ermor takes skill to play right, just like any other nation.

Exactly. Zeldor seems to have done very well in my opinion. I did not, and I know why. I've learned from the experience. Have you learned from this?

Ganging on Ermor gives everyone an edge. And not trying to stop the leader is game-ruining.

Except that the last (strong) nation standing would be you. I do not know what Abysia has, so I will not comment on that. I suppose he has some fire kings and possibly unique blood summons though. All very well counterable.

I am saying that watching Ermor defeat everyone one by one and not even trying to win is not fun. What you do is much worse than just going AI.

Ok, now thats it. Zeldor can declare himself a winner, if his conscience allows it after everything that happened here.

So, you are after all saying that the game cannot be fun if Ermor wins due he playing his nation well.

With you admitting that you cannot defeat Ermor, I believe he's the rightful winner. I'm ready to concede the game for him should he want to end this. I still would prefer if you'd fight on to actually see what happens.

[SciencePro]

Originally Posted by Kuritza

I asked you nicely many times.

You most certainly did not! You PM’d me exactly once ever and that was responding to questions I sent you.

If you are going to attack me, this ruins the game completely.

Well I certainly hope it ruins it for you! That’s the point. There is nothing I could do to enjoy myself more than attack you right now so it will hardly ruin things for me.

Its so much easier to make up some dumb reason and attack these who fight Ermor, while attacking Ermor is so... scary, yes?
Grats, coward.

I am attacking you because of all the whining, all the name-calling, and all the useless drama. You’ve turned this game into a laughingstock of silliness and I can’t think of any way I could enjoy myself more than attacking your nation.

Zeldor, you have won. THE most undesereved victory ever - these (so tempted to use this word) did nothing to stop you, and now Rlyeh will stop me, as he did with Marignon before.

Well the likelihood is that either you are going to win or Zeldor is. Zeldor’s been helpful and friendly and sportsmanlike. You’ve chosen the opposite route. So obviously Zeldor is much more deserving of ultimately winning than you are.

But I'm not surrendering. As far as I'm concerned we'll play it out until the end. If/when Zeldor wants to take my territory i will fight tooth and nail over it. Sure, it would be nice if I had a decent ally or two but I'd rather lose to a sportsmanlike player than be allied with an a-hole.

And if you are still 'not convinced LA Ermor is OP', just watch the graphs again.

Zeldor’s success in this game has little to do with Ermor’s inherent abiltites and everything to do with his social skills, a gene you were apparently born without.

I am out of here. I tried to open their eyes by reasoning and by critizising. But this is the worst game I ever played.

Smell you later!

Maybe you should try Farmville. I think it’s more your speed.

[Kuritza]

>> With you admitting that you cannot defeat Ermor, I believe he's the rightful winner. I'm ready to concede the game for him should he want to end this. I still would prefer if you'd fight on to actually see what happens.

I might have prevailed, to be honest. But see the smelly comment from Science above. He enjoyed himself killing Marignon, now he is going to enjoy himself killing me. Of course, he cant 'kill' me, but as in Ossa's case, I wont be able to fight both Rlyeh and Ermor effectively.
I wont give him this pleasure.

>> So, you are after all saying that the game cannot be fun if Ermor wins due he playing his nation well.

No. Even Zeldor said it here - he was surrounded by underplayed, staling nations, and then Rlyeh backstabbed his only adversary. Now you decided to turtle, and Science keeps attacking these who might fight Ermor. Its not a victory I would call 'sportsmanlike'.

>>You most certainly did not! You PM’d me exactly once ever and that was responding to questions I sent you.

I asked everyone, in the forum, many times. I also PMed you, indeed, answering your questions and telling you that we should aid Marignon and I am about to attack Ermor. Which I did. You didnt answer me and didnt attack Ermor too, making sure Marignon didnt recover from your backstab.

>> But I'm not surrendering. As far as I'm concerned we'll play it out until the end. If/when Zeldor wants to take my territory i will fight tooth and nail over it. Sure, it would be nice if I had a decent ally or two but I'd rather lose to a sportsmanlike player than be allied with an a-hole.

Yes, you are not surrendering. You are ruining this game by once again supporting an already winning side from underwater, making resistance futile. How very nice. Oh, and speaking of maneers, whining and name-calling. Please do read the previous page. I stated that I asked for help, repeatedly and in a civil maneer, to absolutely no avail. You told me that I should have 'asked somebody for help' and called me an 'a-hole'. Twice now. Go wash your mouth.


I only despaired after Isokron asked to close this game. Just when I was about to finally get a chance to fight Ermor and do something meaningful in this game.
Hehe. Nobody listened to me when I tried explaining just how much more dangerous adequately-played Ermor is than any other nation. When I despaired and lost my temper, I've got your attention at least. Of course, you still didnt understand anything. The likes of you never do.

[binarysolo]

A somewhat neutral comment from the peanut gallery... I've been following this thread for awhile given that I've played with about half of the players here in various MP/Blitz games, and this thread is pretty notorious on IRC too.


I think there's a divergence of expectation amongst the players here, where some clearly regard the point of the game being in-game victory and only that, and that people should act in a game-optimal manner without regard to any other interests. The other party clearly includes diplomacy and meta-diplomatic actions as part of their decision process. It's not my place to assign fault or anything, but while I don't think consorting with Sauron's the smartest idea for one's own livelihood, being indignant in expectation for allies in your holier-than-thou war without any regards to diplomacy is not constructive either. From what I understand Zeldor put a decent chunk of time playing the diplomacy game, and ultimately a lot of Dom3 is that unless you play the No Diplo games. Heck, as he showed, with a good investment of time into diplomatic overtures, you can divide your enemies and even ally them despite clearly leading in the charts.

Obviously these MP games are a huge time investment, and with that builds ownership and attachment, but I think certain players may regret that their comments and behaviors will be permanently etched into the records of this forum. Take a breather, it's a game at the end of the day, no need to wade deep into the mud just to carry the battles into the community itself. :/

[Zeldor]

Come on, let's not exaggerate the drama.

There were many weak players in the game. But they bordered everyone. Am I to blame that others did not take use of their weakness? Kuritza took a prov with sages near C'tis cap, unforted, and C'tis has lower research than I do. Pan suicided his pretender after casting a global with him, which let you easily kill him.

Why are you blaming me here? Is it my fault that previous R'lyeh player did not tell me about his agreement with Mari? that Mari did not inform new R'lyeh player properly? that new R'lyeh player was really much better player and made some use of his nation and finally killed indies? that some players got convinced by people like you that Ermor is uber and panicked [like Jomon who retreated instead of owning me with massed archers]? that Utgard did not attack me early on, when he couldn't really do much?

You did serious mistakes in your diplomacy. You limited to to Ermor and anti-Ermor camps. But it was not really that. It was either me, Mari or Man camp. You forgot that you need to convince someone to help you win. Convince someone that you winning is better than me winning. And it looks like you failed in that.

[Kuritza]

I doubt I will regret anything, to be honest. Oh I would, were I to keep playing with these people again. But really, would you play again, fully knowing that this crap will happen again and again?

I actually care about peoples opinion about me, funny as it may sound. Usually, that is. But sometimes you just get tired of stepping on the same rake. I had enough games with a clear leader spending days charming everyone else to the point they just hand him the victory. I dont blame these people, actually. Not anymore, at least. Zeldor did a good job here, and I have zero hard feelings towards him. But newbs (and/or loonies) who buy it make me annoyed. Irrational, unreasonable people arouse some irrational anger in me.

Sometimes you want to play Dominions with sensible people who dont play to make others win. You wish for game companions who actually play to the end; play as in 'strive to win', not 'backstab somebody just for the fun of it, and then lose'.

Such community doesnt exist, obviously. There are no ideal people (flashnews). So I have to stop playing. My wife will be glad, to be honest. )))))
And about these who called me an *******... Or my harsh behaviour that will be 'etched into this forum'... Who cares? Some will remember me as a good player, some will remember me as a bad person. Some probably wont. But at the end of the day its just some game forum.
/shrug