Guide: Jotunheim MA Guide

[WraithLord]

Or you could do a reverse communion. For example, take 4 Skratti's and one S vaetti. Script Skrattis to sabbath slave, quicken self, BoW, change shape, attack. Script vaetti to CM, BE, Personal Luck, Resist Magic, Astral Shield (or whatever S buffs fit your needs), Make sure to give 1 blood slave to each Skratti and to choose a Vaeti with high unit ID (appears below Skrattis in army setup screen).

I have seen strange behavior of Skratti shape shifting in my tests. If I take him to battle in Skratti form, then cast Divine blessing, holy avenger (was prophetized), attack, then I see him following orders well in battle but after battle is over he ends up in his wolf form. Now this may cause serious issues on equipped Skrattis.

To another issue. I've been trying to make up my mind which move is better. To prophetize my starting herse, or wait an additional turn and prophetize a skratti. Given that I'm taking an E+N bless that is. They both perform exceedingly well vs. indies, but I have a feeling that for the long run the Skratti would be a better choice. Any opinions?

[thejeff]

I haven't tried the reverse communion with Skratti. Seems to me the fatigue would be too high. Mostly from the Sabbath Slave. I'm not sure it gives enough advantage over even minimal gear, though it'd be faster to set up in a pinch.

As for shape-shifting, the script you describe should leave him in Skratti form. If you left out "change shape", then he will change again, to wolf form, after the battle. This is why I usually change to werewolf form outside of battle and take the extra fatigue casting buffs.

I'd stick with prophetizing the herse. With that bless, Woodsmen should do well for initial expansion. Then maybe Jarls once I've got another fort up. Skratti thugs usually wait until I can get some gear. Shrouds, Frostbrand & a shield, at least.
Prophet thugs take penalties outside your dominion which can be crippling, so I hate to rely on them. In the long run, I don't see a great advantage to a Skratti prophet thug over one with a Shroud. I guess you could put better armor on the prophet.

[Valerius]

Minor point, but you'll have to cast BE outside of the communion since the area of effect is not caster.

[WraithLord]

Originally Posted by thejeff

I haven't tried the reverse communion with Skratti. Seems to me the fatigue would be too high. Mostly from the Sabbath Slave. I'm not sure it gives enough advantage over even minimal gear, though it'd be faster to set up in a pinch.

I'm talking E9 bless and four slaves so fatigue should be minimal. Advantage it that no gear is required for getting basic thug with luck, additional MR and astral shield.

Originally Posted by thejeff

As for shape-shifting, the script you describe should leave him in Skratti form. If you left out "change shape", then he will change again, to wolf form, after the battle. This is why I usually change to werewolf form outside of battle and take the extra fatigue casting buffs.

I'm not sure I understand the part about leaving out the "change shape". What I did is enter combat as Skratti and scripted to four rounds of bufs and then change shape and then attack. When I look at the next turn the Skratti is in wolf form.

Originally Posted by thejeff

I'd stick with prophetizing the herse. With that bless, Woodsmen should do well for initial expansion. Then maybe Jarls once I've got another fort up. Skratti thugs usually wait until I can get some gear. Shrouds, Frostbrand & a shield, at least.
Prophet thugs take penalties outside your dominion which can be crippling, so I hate to rely on them. In the long run, I don't see a great advantage to a Skratti prophet thug over one with a Shroud. I guess you could put better armor on the prophet.

It has more HP and better defense and more regen so more survivable. You have a point about out of dominions penalties - just lost the said Skratti in one of my SP tests due to those
Buttom line I agree Herse is better choice.

[Valerius]

If you issue the change shape command, after the battle the game will issue another change shape command. It would seem this is intended to return the unit to its original form, in the case of a unit with two shapes. Since skrattis have three forms it's a problem for them. With your build you won't be risking losing equipment due to the second shape change but I'm guessing if you had to fight two battles in one turn it would be an issue since you will not be in the correct shape for the second battle.

[thejeff]

If you order any shape changer to change shape in battle, they'll change shape again at the end. For those with 2 forms, this gets them back to the original. Skratti have 3, so they wind up in wolf form. Very annoying.
It's easiest to just send them in werewolf form, despite the lower paths and thus higher fatigue from buffs.
I said "leaving out the change shape" since you didn't actually list it in your initial description.

In the reverse communion, without Shrouds they won't have E9, so no reinvig. With 2 slaves most Skratti will get 25+ fatigue from Sabbath Slave, then add their buffs & fatigue from the Hag's casting. High, but probably survivable. No decent weapons or shield still leaves them vulnerable. If you want to give them Shrouds or weapons, you have to start them as Werewolves or lose the gear which puts them at 1B and 100 fatigue from Sabbath Slave.
An interesting surprise in a pinch, especially if you're defending a province with a lab and can give them some gear. Not something I'd want to use heavily.

[WraithLord]

So with shrouds they'll enjoy the E9 bless. If they enter communion in Skratti form they'll receive 50 fatigue. With 2 slaves as you said - 25.

Only annoyance is wolf form after battle.

I said nothing about equipment b/c its orthogonal to the communion, just equip them however best fits the circumstance or don't equip them at all if that's not required. I'm a minimalist when it comes to managing armies and SCs

The above said I must admit that this is indeed a corner case that may possibly come useful under relief+E9 bless as a last ditch nasty surprise.

[chrispedersen]

Jot PD...

Does Jot get woodsmen at all in pd 20+ for example?
do they get a priest?
If so, a nature bless and berserk woodsmen might make the pd tenable.

Anyone know?

[thejeff]

They do not get woodsmen.

They get Javelineers and one of the tougher troops, I think.

They do get a Jarl. Which is incredibly frustrating beacause, with a good bless, he and the Herse could beat off weak attackers by themselves, but they just sit in the back and wait for the militia to run away.

The PD isn't tenable. Certainly not worth buying up to 20. Except maybe in SP to discourage the AI from declaring war in the first place.


Just put thugs where you expect to be attacked, raid back, and/or use your thugs to retake the provinces.

[Redeyes]

Manual says no to woodsmen, yes to priest, at 20+ pd