Should LA Mictlan get access to LA Atlantian submarine units?

[Poopsi]

I say they should. After all, they are atlantian exilees just the same.

[Gregstrom]

It would be nice if they got something suitable - maybe not the same as the LA Atlantis underwater units, but something appropriate would be a nice piece of flavour.

[Sombre]

Yes. I think they should get different UW recruitables from LA Atlantis, perhaps worse ones.

[thejeff]

Actually, I think even if they got the same units, they would be worse for Mictlan.

The big attraction to the Forgiving Father for LA Atlantis is that it gives them access to Astral. Mictlan already has Astral, so it's only a fairly expensive Water/Astral mage. There's not a lot of useful synergy with Water and Astral, so there's not much benefit. And for Mictlan, another H2 is no big deal.

It's nice to have and those units are good against R'lyeh. Anything that gives R'lyeh more opposition in the water is good.
Mind you, different, equally interesting units would be great, but thematically it makes sense for either nation to find the same survivors when they return to the depths.

[vfb]

I vote for yes, mostly because it's a nice theme. And pretty pictures too!

Mictlan mages are totally different from the LA Atlantis UW mages. LA Mictlan cannot build national troops underwater, they just get the Rain Priest and King of Rain, plus the cool frog glaive sacreds.

Losing the cheaper N2B2H3 Priest King actually hurts Mictlan against Ermor IMO. I'm in an MP Ermor/Mictlan war at the moment, coincidentally. I need the Priest Kings because, first, I can't afford the Rain Kings, and second, without the N2 my jags would be starving. I was forced into an early war with Ermor because of geography. Damn you, geography!

Or am I missing something here? I mean, I tried building an underwater castle as LA Mictlan and the option's just not there. I can hire PD underwater, that's it.

...

Oh, crap, now I finally understand the poll. I need my vote back!

I thought a 'No' vote in the poll meant to take away the Rain King etc that's already in LA Mictlan. Doh.

I think LA Mictlan is cool enough as it is being able to hire those ex-Atlantian rain dudes. I don't think they should be able to hire the Forgiving Father etc underwater, because I think that'll steal some coolness from Atlantis, like, decreased diversity.

Gimme my vote back! Argh. Stoopid butterfly ballots.

[Zeldor]

Well, in theory yes. But do we want to make one of the strongest LA nations to be even stronger? 95% of LA games are played without R'lyeh, Mictlan has already great amphibian capabilities and no one can really challenge them underwater. And give them next bonus for that now?

I'd vote for yes only if many many other nations get amphibian troops and uw recruitment.

[thejeff]

Well that's sort of the kicker.
Most games are played without R'lyeh because it's really hard to challenge R'lyeh in the water. Boosting another powerful nations ability to do so might just mean Mictlan is the next too powerful nation, or it might mean R'lyeh can be used more often because it's got more valid opposition.

I haven't done a lot with Mictlan underwater. Is it really that powerful? It's got capital only sacreds and mages. For anything else it has to rely on water breathing items or indy recruits. The LA Atlantis underwater troops aren't really that special, though the Unsleeping(?) have good MR.
The Mother is just an expensive H2, could be thugged, but Mictlan's usual bless doesn't work to well for thugs. The Father is useful, but doesn't really add a lot for Mictlan.

Ideally, I'd like to see someone able to challenge R'yleh for control of the seas enough that R'lyeh gets used more often.

[konming]

No, but they should get a different set of Atlantian under water units.

[OmikronWarrior]

Thematically, I don't think so. Mictlan is a human nation which was coopted by a few Atlantians. Such recruits should remain capital only. Atlantis, on the otherhand, is a traditionally underwater nation that just so happens to start on land in the Late Age.

[thejeff]

It is a bit odd that it does get standard Atlantian PD underwater, but can't recruit those troops in underwater forts.

Given that the thematic reason for LA Atlantis's underwater recruits is that they are hidden survivors of R'lyeh's attacks that have been found by the returning Atlantians, is seems odd that they would not react the same way to Mictlan's Kings of Rain.

On the other hand, the bits of descriptive text for Mictlan's Atlantians don't seem as focused on returning to the water, IIRC.