Suggestion for new Oceana units

[Tifone]

Mmh, this seemed me nice at a first glance, but surely I have some problems to conceptualize it... is it supposed to give all water units "amphibious" trait because they can breath here and there? or what?

[Endoperez]

It's easier to conceptualize as a global than as an item that only affects few troops. Water-breathing pills or a Manual of Water-Breathing? Fine. Amulet of the Fish -type "I'm in a bubble of water"? Hard to do on an army scale, except if you just flood and everyone non-amphibian gets Sailors' Death'ed.

As a global, though... just change the rules. All battlefields everywhere are affected by a Mist effect, because the very air is changed.

I really like the global idea. The only thing I'm not sure about is if Thetis' Blessing should work both ways, or if there should be a new global for underwater-to-land effect.

[Sombre]

I think Thetis' blessing should work both ways. That way if EA Rlyeh or EA Oceania wants to clamber up onto land using it they at least have to expose themselves to counterattack automatically.

[Tifone]

Now that idea of you seems to me the nicest Sombre. A Thetis' Blessing which becomes something you must consider very well before doing both as an underwater nation than as a land nation, because it can make you attack the enemy easily but even be counterattacked on your own territory! And it seems very fitting the Dominions 3 "magic mood", as many spells of this game affect everybody, empowering the enemy too, or damaging you too, and as side effects that must be considered carefully. Nice nice nice idea imho!!

P.S. In effect, the actual Thetis' Blessing as well as a reverse version seem a little too cheap and easy to me. But a version that has both the effects is so strategically interesting I can't find words for it

[Chris_Byler]

Actually USING Thetis Blessing (normal, the proposed reverse version, or the proposed 2-way version) makes you horribly vulnerable to having it dispelled, because whole armies of units (and possibly SCs too) drown/suffocate.

So that alone isn't going to solve the problems of water nations unable to compete on land (of which we seem to agree MA Oceania is the biggest example), especially given the high research requirement, and the fact that being a water nation doesn't necessarily give you tons of water gems to protect it from dispel.


A weaker cave drake that you could summon in your secure underwater labs and *then* take up on land would be a useful alternative to ice drakes that you need to capture a land lab (and put your mages in it) *before* summoning, and even then they're largely useless against a variety of cold-resistant races and units. (If it's weaker than a cave drake presumably it would also be cheaper.) Amphibious sea serpents would have the same benefit - the summoners can stay in the safety of the water, while someone else leads the beasts onto land, and unlike much of your battle magic, they don't rely on cold to be effective.

Since most maps are mostly land, a nation that is severely disadvantaged on land is doomed, even if they have a secure powerbase in the water. (If their land disadvantage is that bad, any non-coastal province is equally secure against them.)

[Wrana]

Agree to Chris_Byler: summons/transforms are probably better. Sea snakes are excellent example. Considering turtles - I believe just the name of snapping-turtle is worth it. And crocodiles. Considering hyppopotams - I remembered them initially because the name means "sea horse" in Greek, so they can be freely hybridized with denisens of ancient bestiaries...
As for mantas - now I think that I see where they can be placed - they can be a theme of sadly absent LA Oceania!
By the way, spells which actually changed terrain type were among my favorites in old Master of Magic, but I'm almost sure that they can't be implemented under current engine. Which is a pity - gods and god-like magicians should have an ability to move or raise mountains...

[Tifone]

it is "river horse"

[HoneyBadger]

Do any current ocean units have Stealth? Because there's a whole lot of really weird deep-sea creatures that have remarkable stealth adaptations.

[Wrana]

Thanks, Tifone. My Greek is somewhat mishmash, I know. But the idea stands.
To HoneyBadger: unfortunately no, iirc. Except maybe some Bogarus summons. I agree that such should be present and can add much versatility to Oceania. Actually, even well-known octopuses have pretty effective camouflage system...

[Tifone]

Actually I've seen octopuses on tv and even in real life a couple of times scuba diving. They *instantly* change their colour according to the surface they're over, even when they're swimming at fast speed on different coloured surfaces, it's just amazing and very beautiful O.O