New patch

[Kristoffer O]

I've probably done more research this time than before. I begun work on it before the 3.15 was released and I didn't want units to appear in sprites and stats before the nation was finished, so I went for descriptions first this time.

Not making graphics and only making descriptions made me read more than usual. Also I'm quite fond of Middle/Near eastern ancient myth and history.

I've used the bible, the Zohar, book of enoch, some modern writhings on Ugaritic religion and the rephaim texts, and of course an osprey book (ancient armies of the middle east)

Since I'm quite fond of the nations I've been afraid that they would be too strong. I hope the drawbacks are enough to make them not overpowered. Since I'm not very used to design thugs/SC, and the nations are based on few mighty men I'm not sure how to properly balance them. There is no real precedent. Niefel giants are more powerful with their cold aura, but the Fomorians are probably inferior.

[Kristoffer O]

SelfishGene said:
I really like the Hinnom mythology. It's a cross between the Biblical antagonists of the Israelites, Vampire: The Masquerade's Antedilluvian 3rd generation fathers, and Warhammer 40k's Horus Heresy.

I'm not familiar with the Horus Mythology. The antediluvians draw heavily from biblical myth. I don't think I have actively used the masquerade as an inspirational source. I have played it and liked the vampire setting, but most of what's in there comes from the biblical/near eastern tradition. Monstrous giants that devour everything including their own offspring until killed by a great deluge, is not an invention of the masquerade.

Edit: come to think about it, the degeneration theme might be influenced by vampire, but the giants do shrink when they go from mythical time to historical time. Goliath is less mighty then the Nephilim.

[chrispedersen]

Yes, its sad. Gath's best unit is a slinger = ).
(tongue in cheek, but its almost true).

[Loren]

MaxWilson said:
Loren,

It's 222 astral pearls for something that may (or may not) be inferior to a seraph, PLUS 4 super-awesome mini-thugs in their own right. The 4 Ophanim are definitely worth the price--in my test runs I had the Chayot just stand there watching while the Ophanim rolled over hundreds of chaff units everything in sight without taking a single wound as far as I could tell. You have noted that the Chayot has four forms and can survive a Soul Slay? That's not to say that somebody might not Wish for a Chayot directly, but I must say I'd rather have both the Chayot and his bodyguard. Call Merkavah is incredible.

-Max

Oh, that's where those came from! I thought they were from another summoning. I hadn't noticed them when they showed up as I wasn't expecting any non-commanders.

Ok, I'll retract my objection.

[MaxWilson]

Kristoffer O said:
Edit: come to think about it, the degeneration theme might be influenced by vampire, but the giants do shrink when they go from mythical time to historical time. Goliath is less mighty then the Nephilim.

I don't know an easy way to view heroes. I wonder if Ashdod or Gath has Nimrod, the mighty "hunter" (i.e. killer), as a national hero.

-Max

[MaxWilson]

Kristoffer O said:
Since I'm quite fond of the nations I've been afraid that they would be too strong. I hope the drawbacks are enough to make them not overpowered. Since I'm not very used to design thugs/SC, and the nations are based on few mighty men I'm not sure how to properly balance them. There is no real precedent. Niefel giants are more powerful with their cold aura, but the Fomorians are probably inferior.

So far, my impression is that Ashdod is tremendous *fun* because they have so many options, kind of like Lanka. I'm not thinking at this point that they'll be unbalanced. As you say, Niefelheim is better at thugging/SCing because Niefel Jarls have the cold aura and better equipment out of the box, and also Jotun Jarls and Skratti are recruitable everywhere. They have fun battlemages and good, solid troops, but supply is a problem (nice to have a nation where gluttony actually matters because it's not combined with Need Not Eat). The summons provide a great endgame strategy to shoot for, but that just means the endgame will be more thematic instead of generic Seraphs and Tartarians. In terms of thugs and SCs I think the main advantage over Niefelheim is that Adons are not afraid of heat (or cold), but they need a chaff-killer.

-Max

[SelfishGene]

Note that everything i know about Vampire: The Masquerade and Warhammer, i learned from the game, or Wikipedia, respectively .

It was to the flavor text of the Angels of Civilization to which i was referring the Warhammer Horus Heresy stuff, the way the Prime Angel has a close second, and then corrupts the rest of them - and end up being banished out of the normal plane of existence. The fluff text is pretty interesting as a story, the way you wrote it, because it's also a revealing point in the fictional origins that was unanticipated. The story of the Avvim and the creation of the Nephilim, not out of love or lust, but out of a desire to commit sin, is what's particularly interesting.

Yea, it was the theme of degeneration, but also of "diablerie", that reminded me of the Vampire series. The Son of the Fallen pretender is described as hunting down and devouring all his kin. The "mythology" of the Vampire games is that the 3rd generation of Vampires after Cain (the Antediluvians) will eventually awaken, hunt down, and devour all their degenerate offspring.

You all did a great job of realizing these Biblical figures, though. I imagine these will remain the most realized forms of these obscure Biblical giants for some time. Hinnom feels the most classically "evil" of all of the myriad nations created so far, and they're pretty cool to play. Thanks for making them!

[Sombre]

I don't think Hinnom really feel evil at all. Most of their nation is made up of Avvim who are basically 'high men'. The classic superior-in-every-way super humans. They do have rather corrupt rephaim lording it over them.

They have some similarities with Arga Dis. Blood giants ruling over a proud and gifted race.