vengeance of the dead, how it works with 1000+ ? - Page 2

triqui · #11 March 26th, 2008, 10:20 AM

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kasnavada said:
Errr...

The people killed in the dreamed caused by the spell shouldn't be counted, that's true even from a logical point of view. Think of it : the guy that got killed now has two, three or more soul ! It's completely illogical !

That might work as a partial solution (at least it avoid the cummulative aspect, and allow you to retire the character for a while, until you have access to better equipment, like more MR). However, it still makes VotD the most powerful anti-character overland spell, when you compare the resarch cost and gem cost. It is much better than mind hunt for example.

kasnavada · #12 March 26th, 2008, 10:50 AM

I do not agree with that. VotD won't ever be able to kill a researcher in a province, while mind hunt can. It is however more powerful than mind hunt when the targetted person has killed many people.

triqui · #13 March 26th, 2008, 01:13 PM

but it is not that hard to put a couple lizard shamans in your research provinces to counter mind hunt (if you dont have astral yourself). What can you do to stop VotD kill your pretender in turn 15?

thejeff · #14 March 26th, 2008, 01:23 PM

I agree it is currently abusive, since it's cumulative and kills the target on timeout.

If either of those were fixed, a decent SC pretender should be able to survive hordes of lousy undead chaff indefinitely.
It should rarely work on a pretender with an Antimagic amulet even now.

kasnavada · #15 March 26th, 2008, 01:24 PM

Taking a non-SC pretender makes it pretty much immune.

I'm not arguing that the spell is not powerful enough or anything, nor defending it. In fact, after having read the entire other post you necroed, I quite agree that something is flawed by design in that spell. Thematically speaking : the dead shouldn't be able to avenge themselves with more than 1 soul, and maybe not more than once. Furthermore, there is no real counter apart from hoping that MR will resist the spell (which is not a counter at all), and it is really quite cheap... Another idea would be to put rituals "behind" movement in initiative order, or give a chance for ritual targetting moving units to fail (50% chance ? or more for fast movement / units ?). But that might change the gameplay too much.

triqui · #16 March 26th, 2008, 01:50 PM

taking a non-sc pretender makes your pretender inmune, but still leave your other non-pretender SC vulnerable. It is not a pretender-killer, it is a SC killer. It does not work on non-SC, but on SC it is pretty much uncountereable. I dont have a problem with SC dying (they die constantly to other spells, like mind hunt), but i dont like it to be uncountereable no matter of what, and i dont like it to be so damn cheap. The ice on the cake is that it actually *shouldnt* work that way, as the rules say that the *Attacker* loses in 50 turns, not the defender. (i agree you neet to have a turn limit, becouse other wise 2 characters spaming raise dead with enough reinvigoration can stall the game forever and never be able to kill each other. But if the rule says *�ttacker* lose in 50 turns, the it should not be the defender the one that dies)

Foodstamp · #17 March 26th, 2008, 01:54 PM

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Omnirizon said:

Quote:

vfb said:
IMO Vengeance of the Dead is buggy too, for including undead kills in its dead count. It's the souls of the dead you slew coming back to haunt you. So when you double up, where the heck did those extra undead come from?

Its the same mechanics as reincarnation. If reincarnation is true, than how does the population of the world increase? The person living now is only the soul of someone who lived before. They don't die and create a soul of their present life in addition to their last one. So as population increases, where are all the extra souls coming from?

New souls right? Do the "mechanics" of reincarnation say anything about brand new souls entering the mix?

kasnavada · #18 March 26th, 2008, 01:57 PM

There might also be, just to give numbers, a total of 1 billion souls in many places, with "only" 1 million "alive". Leaving place for extension.

Agrajag · #19 March 26th, 2008, 02:23 PM

Yeah, there could be a lot more available souls then souls "in use". The more people there are, the less time it takes each soul to reincarnate.

As for a counter, how about a sufficiently strong fire shield? If it is strong enough to kill a soul in one hit, then all the souls will be annihilated fairly quickly, as a new soul comes to take the place of a killed soul in the same turn it is killed. (I've never tried VotD, so I don't know how tough the undead are to see if such a thing is possible/viable)

NTJedi · #20 March 26th, 2008, 02:43 PM

Quote:

triqui said:
Is the game stalled at round 75? I die? (i guess the ghosts dont run or break morale in round 50, do they?)

It's my understanding the undead from the dream do not flee at turn 50... thus at turn 75 your mage/commander flees and is auto-killed.

This has a few issues which are just logically wrong:
1) Being auto-killed while fleeing during an assassination. Historically and logically incorrect.

2) Successfully fleeing during a dream should at worst cause the target to awaken... maybe with the battle fright affliction.

3) Killing these undead within a dream should not count as kills. This results in one soul being doubled or tripled and appearing in future VotD castings.

4) The battle turn limits... as I understand are 50 the attacker retreats, 75 defender retreats and 100 all attackers are killed. As computers become more and more powerful it would be nice if us gamers had the option of adjusting the battle turn limits. Currently every game we play has this all powerful organized union which forces non-golem attackers to retreat at 5pm... and then forces non-golem defenders to retreat at 8pm. I hate this organized union.