Aircraft weapons

DRG · #1 February 8th, 2008, 04:01 PM

There has been discussions in the past on this forum regarding the effectiveness of aircraft in the game and it was added to the list for this patch to be investigated. We are right in the middle of that investigation ATM and we have discovered one or two flaws that have morphed into serious issues that will be addressed in the next patch.

Some background info first that applies to aircraft launched rockets as that is what I am up to my armpits with ATM.

Aircraft launched rockets ONLY ( and this is important ) utilize the HE entry in the unit OOB. If you have an aircraft with guns and then two lines of rockets it will ONLY use "HE" rockets and never "AP" ones and therefore they do not use "AP penetration" weapon numbers and they do not use "HEAT penetration" weapon numbers either. The number that aircraft launched rockets use when determining an attack on infantry is the "HE kill" number in the weapon data and number that aircraft launched rockets use when determining an attack on an armoured target is the "HE penetration" number. If that number is zero or 1 that's all the penetration it gets even if it shows a significant HEAT capability

Helicopters are a different issue. Helicopter ARE set up to use the "AP" slot in a units weapons Helicopters fired rockets CAN use the "HEAT penetration" number IF the rocket is set up in the AP column of the unit data. If the rocket is set up under the HE line it will use the "HE kill" number.

What we found was a number of different problems compound by cut and pasting units and weapons from one OOB to the other. If the "master" weapon was wrong it usually ended up wrong wherever it was pasted to unless someone found it and then tracing back where all the others were can be a chore at the best of times.

Many weapons we have found were set up and applied correctly but many were not and sometimes aircraft weapons were given to helos and vice versa due to misunderstanding which one applied. It can be difficult when dealing with what can look like very similar weapons in the OOB with very similar numbers but in different order and keep that all straight over 92 OOB's.

The main problem was rockets, fired from aircraft , that should have had an anti tank capability were not, in some cases, getting what would be the penetration values usually found under "HEAT penetration" applied to the "HEPen" which made them virtually useless against any armoured target. All that is being sorted out now. The end result is rocket firing aircraft will be somewhat more deadly against armoured targets in this next patch than previous IF the weapon info had been set up incorrectly in the current OOB's. If your favorite aircraft had rockets that were set up correctly you won't see any change. As I said, not all air launched rockets were set up incorrectly but may were and that will be corrected for the next game upgrade along with any other issue we find in that regard

Don

Suhiir · #2 February 8th, 2008, 09:38 PM

Actually I'm glad to hear this, as I've found most aircraft weapons to be of limited use VS armored targets - and the exceptions to sometimes act like pocket nukes killing vehicles 2 or even 3 hexes from the impact hex - yet strangely fail to effect the targeted vehicle.

I'm very much looking forward to this correction.

Marcello · #3 February 9th, 2008, 04:23 PM

"Aircraft launched rockets ONLY ( and this is important ) utilize the HE entry in the unit OOB. If you have an aircraft with guns and then two lines of rockets it will ONLY use "HE" rockets and never "AP" ones and therefore they do not use "AP penetration" weapon numbers and they do not use "HEAT penetration" weapon numbers either."

I found that out the hard way some time ago, when I tried to have my iraqi SU-22s firing S-5K rockets at tanks. Needless to say it did not work out.

DRG · #4 February 10th, 2008, 03:23 PM

Yes, this wasn't a discovery on our part as much as a discovery that over time a number of units had been set up this way by the various OOB designers or that when units are cut and pasted from one OOB to another sometimes weapons set for helos have been used for aircraft and aircraft weapons used on Helos. That's not an issue if the weapon in question is strictly HE but it is very important when there are AT considerations.

Another thing is autocannon on Helos. WC5 will not fire at helos. It's for ground vs ground work. Any weapon set up as WC5 and given to a Helicopter to use as a weapon will shoot at ground targets no problem but will refuse to fire at other helos. I'm right in the middle of sorting all that out now.

There are over 34,000 units in all the OOB's. 34,679 as of today to be exact. Ensuring everyone who ever touched the OOB's did everything by the book can be a real treat at times.

Don

Marek_Tucan · #5 February 11th, 2008, 04:06 PM

For helos, I'd have another question: Would it make sense to distinguish helicopters with fixed weapons and those with wider field of fire? To avoid any East-West conflict, let's take say Ka-50 vs. Mi-28, one has gun with only limited traverse in forward arc, the other has gun on rotating mount. So I'd guess the '28 should be somehow benefitted compared to '50 in terms of firing opportunities, as '50 has to maneuver more to get shot off - does that make any sense?

Anyway, my suggestion would be lowering stabilliser rating for the helos with fixed guns. In hover, they'd get the same firing opportunities, but once they'd get moving, they will lose them faster than helos with flexible weapons.

Not a major issue, jsut a stray thought provoked by the Air question.

thatguy96 · #6 February 11th, 2008, 08:40 PM

If you were going to do that I think some people might clamour for a look at whether or not there is enough variance to then justify changes based on the nature of the turret and targeting equipment as well. Faster slew rates and more advanced sighting equipment right.

Marek_Tucan · #7 February 12th, 2008, 02:20 AM

Those would be covered rather by FC methinks, but anyway as I've said, it's just a stry idea I even didn't have time to try out. Maybe after Wednesday

thatguy96 · #8 February 12th, 2008, 03:07 AM

Oh, without a doubt, I'm just saying that if you change one thing you might end up being compelled to change another.

kevineduguay1 · #9 February 12th, 2008, 10:36 PM

I had a Maverick kill two tanks in different hexes, so this is a problem. But why can't the A-10's 30mm gun kill a tank? After all was'nt the gun was designed to do this? At least once on occation?

DRG · #10 February 13th, 2008, 01:48 PM

Two kills for one missile can happen. If the HEkill is reduced that reduces incidents like that but also makes the weapon less effective against non armoured targets. We made changes to the code in the last release that reduced the number of incidences like that and I assume this isn't something you see all the time but you don't say one way or the other. If it is, nobody else is reporting it.

The A-10's 30mm gun CAN kill a tank in the game. I have seen it happen so saying it cannot "At least once on occasion" is ridiculous and I can provide save games that prove that statement is ridiculous. However, we are reviewing how multibarreled weapons are handled in the game and found a flaw in the code that goes back to SP2 that was reducing the effects of multibarreled guns. That doesn't affect the way the A10's are set up in the OOB's you have now but will when the patch is released and the new OOB's are used. However, don't expect fantasy results where A-10's leave masses of twisted wreckage after one pass. The actual armoured piecing ability of the GAU-8 Avenger is 69mm at 500 meters but the game fires from a shorter range and is rated as a 9 right now and that's won't kill a lot of tanks.

Don