Fairey swordfish

[chuckfourth]

Hi
In the British OOB unit 320 and 321 seem to have incorrect weapon configurations.
Ie fairy swordfish was a ship bourne torpedo bomber which as far as I can find carried either a torpedo a mine or rockets.
For the two bombs it is -incorrectly- equipped with one is the same weight as a Mine it could carry and the other is close to the weight of its 18 inch torpedo but in the wrong weight units.
see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairey_Swordfish
Best Regards Chuck

[Mobhack]

You mean, apart from when it is carrying bombs, or depth charges?.

A few seconds google on "fairey swordfish bomb" and we get, amongst others: swordfish
and:
Link2
and this one:
Link 3
where we get:

This soon came to pass, when a floatplane version, flown by W.M.L. Brown off the HMS WARSPITE was used to spot for the guns of that ship, resulting in the destruction of seven German destroyers. (Brown dealt the finishing blow to one of these with a bomb from his aircraft). Shortly afterwards, the same pilot executed the first dive bombing attack by the Fleet Air Arm, resulting in the sinking of a U-boat.

It was actually U-64, and it was dive bombed, not depth-charged.

Swordfish flew some night interdiction missions in North Africa, which is probably why the OOB designer included them.


Andy

[chuckfourth]

Hi Mobhack
Would it be churlish of me to point out that none of the bomb configurations from your links match what you have in the game?
Best Regards Chuck.

[Mobhack]

chuckfourth said:
Hi Mobhack
Would it be churlish of me to point out that none of the bomb configurations from your links match what you have in the game?
Best Regards Chuck.

or, one 1,500 lb mine

Which is obviously the weapon the OOB designer seems to be representing here. Air dropped mines as HE weapons were sometimes used in WW2, by all sides.

Given the Swordfish is not a regular support plane, it would be useful in a scenario where it was doing a night raider type attack, delivering a "cookie" in support of, say, and LRDG attack, I suppose. But not really as a daylight attack aircraft, it would be dead meat.

It is there, and of a unit type that is only for human use, so you can use it if you want to, or ignore it if you do not.

Cheers
Andy

[chuckfourth]

Hi Mobhack
Here is some more info on the mine
from
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WAMBR_Mines.htm
At 1,500 lbs the mine is the A MARK I
"Originally designed to fit the same dropping gear as the 18 inch (45 cm) Mark XI torpedo. First used magnetic only triggering but later versions incorporated acoustic, acoustic-magnetic and magnetic-pressure triggering, although the last one was not used in service. Weight was about 1,500 lbs. (680 kg) with a 750 lbs. (340 kg) charge."
So we can see that using this mine as a bomb presents us with a problem, it doesnt have a contact trigger, so its not going to go off until a ship goes past.
Now you and I know that using such a mine as a bomb represents a flight of pure fantasy but what about the rest of your gaming community? they are going to think that sure its a real weapon, there it is in the OOBs after all. And of course its incorrect inclusion distorts play balance as well, the biggest bomb carried by British fighter bombers is 1000 lb, at 1500 lb this baby incorrectly allows a British player to hit his enemy much harder from the air than was really possible. So maybe it would be best to remove the swordfishes 1500lb and 750lb "bombs" (or should I say mine and torpedo) and give it its correct loadout (from your links) of three 500 lb bombs, or, two 550 lb and two 250 lb bombs?
Best Regards Chuck.

[PatG]

Find a book called "17 Seconds" in part it's about defusing German sea mines dropped over England as conventional light case bombs. I cannot speak to if the Swordfish did so but using sea mines as bombs was an established German tactic not a flight of fantasy as my parents can attest to having been on the receiving end.

[JohnHale]

Mobhack said:


Given the Swordfish is not a regular support plane, it would be useful in a scenario where it was doing a night raider type attack, delivering a "cookie" in support of, say, and LRDG attack, I suppose. But not really as a daylight attack aircraft, it would be dead meat.



Cheers
Andy

Andy,

The "Stringbag" certainly has a place in the OOB as an attack aircraft: during the Norwegian Campaign (fiasco?) and Dunkirk evacuation it was used so (as was the Blackburn Skua, btw.). They were also available for use in the Mediterranean.

Bomb load would be either two 250lb or two 500lb bombs.

By May 1943 the Swordfish could also be equipped with eight 60lb rockets. Several squadrons were formed in the RAF with transferred Swordfish, and flew nocturnal "Channel Stop" sorties in the run-up to D-Day and beyond.

The last ones left front-line service in May 1945. (Having out-lived their successor by about two years!)

http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Ai.../Swordfish.htm

[chuckfourth]

Hi Pat
I am not saying that the use of mines as bombs is a flight of fancy I am saying that the use of the British A Mark I mine as a bomb is a flight of fancy.
It cant work as a bomb for the reasons detailed above and any use of it as a cookie or any other type of biscuit is beyond the modeling abilities of the game. What scares me is that their is no concern over the fact that this creates a fighter bomber that will be used in PBEM that has way too large a bomb. One really wonders.
Best Regards Chuck.

[PatG]

Sorry Chuck but that is not what your post said.

So we can see that using this mine as a bomb presents us with a problem, it doesnt have a contact trigger, so its not going to go off until a ship goes past.
Now you and I know that using such a mine as a bomb represents a flight of pure fantasy but what about the rest of your gaming community?

(emphasis added)
As I remember air dropped mines are parachuted in so they don't disintegrate when they hit the water's surface from altitude. Once they land, the anti-lift trigger arms (in the German case it is in part a 17 second timer). If the mine is at a depth less than that set in the anti-lift trigger at the prescribed time after impact, the mine detonates. No contact fuse required on a land drop because the mine will never sink below sea level.
So it is entirely feasible that the Swordfish could use such a mine as a bomb - again I do not claim one ever did.
I respect your concern that a player might use the mine armed Swordfish but I give it no more weight than the player who might field a battalion of Brandenburgers, or 20 Sturmtigers or any number of Maus. There are no Olympic medals given out for playing SP nor are there any cash prizes for playing PBEM so if your opponent sends over flights of mine-carrying Swordfish, either politely ask him to historically justify his purchase or suck it up knowing you can have the points equivalent in fantasy German kit on your side of the board.

[DRG]

OH please !...... "What scares me" ??? You REALLY need to get a life Chuck. Find other interests, expand your horizons beyond worrying about virtually irrelevant micro details in a war game.

The overall bomb load weight that aircraft carried is correct at 1500 pounds, it's the combination of bombs that is MILDLY questionable. So all this whining and *****ing and hand wringing is whether it drops one 1500 pound bomb ( in the form of a "mine".... SO SORRY the guy who put this in years ago was being a bit too "creative" for you Chucky ) or two 750 pound bombs as opposed to the "actual" load of three 500 pounders or one 500 pounder and four 250 pound bombs as detailed in the link Andy provided. It is beyond ridiculous to even THINK having this aircraft loaded this way is grounds to "scare" anyone but WORRY NO MORE...... NO LONGER will you have to live in fear of flights of Swordfish blasting your poor defenceless Germans or Italians or Japanese to smithereens with their secret wonder weapon ( so effective that entire battles will swing on the possession of the device! ) The load has been changed, was changed in fact a couple of days ago and the overall effect on game play for 99.9999 % of the people playing will be next to nil.

Don