Opinions on Caelum (MA and other)

[Kristoffer O]

I recently made High seraphs home only, and got some reactions on the matter.

Contrary to what I believed there seems to be sentiments claiming MA Caelum is weak. I would like to know how Caelum is percieved, MA in particular, but also the other eras in comparison.

Something to begin with:
Mammoths only viable option
Strategic move and flight
Cold
Easy to get shock res on a anti-caelum-SC

[quantum_mechani]

ME and LE Caelum are powerful, but not the most powerful of their eras. The Caelum with the biggest problem is EA, specifically the eagle kings.

There are many things eagle kings are good for, but what really stomps oppositions is their ability to thunder strike spam like no other, it's scary as soon as they get it, and once thy have storm and storm power it really gets nuts. Once they hit critical mass of eagle kings, there is very little that can stop one of their armies.

Mammoths are another issue, but they are really not much different than elephants, which we beat to death in another thread. I will say though that archers are a viable supplement to their armies. Flying infantry though, especially the low armor ones, are a joke. For the purposes of combat, I would usually rather have a militia than a spire horn warrior.

[Baalz]

Well, I've seen Eagle Kings make a decent show of it (for obvious reasons), but outside of them I personally haven't seen anything scary out of Caelum other than a Mammoth rush. This seems to be supported by the victorious nations thread.

Not a terribly large sample size, but outside of EA it looks like the best Caelum has done is a LA draw (nothing in MA). Perhaps somebody who as played/played against MA Caelum more might offer some other opinions.

[Meglobob]

Well, I am playing MA Caelum in the same game Kristoffer's playing MA Mictlan (Armadillo), and I suppose my success may be partially behind why Kristoffer thinks MA Caelum needs a reduction in power.

I am also the one who got the draw in a MP who Baalz refers too playing LA Caelum. I have never played EA Caelum as yet.

My opinion for what its worth is of the 3 eras, MA Caelum is the weakest, LA Caelum has alot more going for it and EA Caelum is the strongest.

In the Armadillo game where I am playing MA Caelum I have been hugely lucky in everyway, none of my opponents I have faced have give me a major challenge. None tried to counter my powerful air magic by spending 5A gems making rings of tamed lightning or copper plate. Even MA Man who has powerful air magic himself. I have also been very lucky in magic sites I have found, giving me easy access to every shpere of magic. I would have been in serious trouble otherwise, MA Caelum only has Air/Water really. Finally I have benefited by having strong reliable allies who are happy to trade magic items with me.

So MA Caelum in Armadillo is only a yardstick to measure the nation by when pretty much everything goes its way.

To directly answer Kristoffer's question, yes Mammoths are the easiest way to expand early on, at the start of the game you have few other options.

Strategic movement/flight, those are Caelum's stongest abilities by far but only come into play mid game onwards. Caelum of all eras is the ultimate raiding nation.

Cold? Not sure what you mean by this.

Easy to get SR on a anti-Caelum SC? Very easy, 5A gems and a 1A mage will do it everytime with little to no research. Your gargoyle SC's/thugs with there 100% resistance to everything scare me silly kristoffer...


So I think restricting High Seraphs to capital only would be a major blow to MA Caelum, making a ok nation at present a whole lot weaker.

Finally, I frequent this forum alot and I have never read a thread complaining about any of the 3 era Caelum's. The only threads I have read about Caelum is how to play it correctly. New players tend to recruit the flying infantry/archers then cannot expand as it is too easily destroyed by even indies.

[Nikolai]

I like early Age Caelum very much. They have many strenghts and strategies, and that for different times in the game. They can go mammoths early, they have air magic in early middle game, Eagle kings can be both battle mages and great fighters, and Harabs develop death branch. Cold scale is great to get points for a superb pretender - many paths on a Ghost King. EA Caelum is awesome.

Late age Caelum is OK, but both its air and death is underwhelming. Most nations have OK counters to mammoths, not enough to stop the rush maybe, but enough to make it costly, and once that trick is outgrown, and shock resistance widely available, the nation shines nowhere. Still, with death it is not a push over, because pretender can be good with scales.

Middle age Caelum is crap. The guys who hooked me to Dominions tried hard to make them work, and got tired to lose. It's got nothing. Mammoths, but everyone expects that. Once that's spent, you have to rely on shock and cold, and that's easy to counter on a fighter. For a real laugh, use a well blessed MA Ermor against MA Caelum. I guarantee it, the Caelum player will be really frustrated. There is litterally nothing he can do - mammoths get slaughtered, his God gets bad dreams, his lightning is useless with a tiny little ring, and he has nothing else.

[Kristoffer O]

> Well, I am playing MA Caelum in the same game Kristoffer's playing MA Mictlan (Armadillo), and I suppose my success may be partially behind why Kristoffer thinks MA Caelum needs a reduction in power.

Perhaps to some extent. Your success didn't refute the preconception I had on Caelum.

I've actually heard stuff on Caelum in general (it might have been EA), not MA in particular. I just assumed it was a general tendency, since Caelum was powerful in dom2.

---

If several people quickly argue against the home only stuff I will change it back. I made the change a bit out of a whim, when I checked what nations had access to higher lvl mages in the MA era. Atlanits, C'tis and Caelum struck me as the only ones with mages recruitable anywhere (there could be more), and I had the general pereconception that All caelums were strong. I was a bit uncertain (thematically) since Caelum is a magocracy, but decidet to go for it.

Since we're conservative I'm not too bothered with sticking to the previous way of things. But, since the patch is about to be launched on the beta (once JK's comp starts working again) , I would like quick feedback on this. I will not make any further changes in this patch, apart from this one.

[Meglobob]

Kristoffer O said:Atlanits, C'tis and Caelum struck me as the only ones with mages recruitable anywhere

It does not seem to make those 3 nations too stong, however. I think most people would agree those MA Nations are ok as is. Strengths/weaknesses seem to balance out.

[Sorlakind]

Kristoffer O said:
I recently made High seraphs home only, and got some reactions on the matter.

Oh puhlease, not the nerf stick again.

Why on earth would you do that? I only know MA Caelum, and while it is a powerful nation it is by no means overpowered. Mammoths? Other nations have elephants and besides early expansion or against some dud nations (think Ulm) they become worthless. Try sending them against any nation with astral/death mages and see what's good for you. The flying infantry? Brittle. I tend to like the spire horn archers because of their shock and cold resistances can have a synergy with spamming lightning/cold spells, and the storm guards for the same reason. But they are resource expensive and... brittle. And lightning/cold resistances are easy to come by, especially on thug, SC's.

I am not going to argue this business anymore, others have done it (and will do it) much better than I. I'm depressed

[quantum_mechani]

Meglobob said:

It does not seem to make those 3 nations too stong, however. I think most people would agree those MA Nations are ok as is. Strengths/weaknesses seem to balance out.

Yes, I'd agree none of those nations are particularly strong ME.

[Kristoffer O]

> In the Armadillo game where I am playing MA Caelum I have been hugely lucky in everyway, none of my opponents I have faced have give me a major challenge. None tried to counter my powerful air magic by spending 5A gems making rings of tamed lightning or copper plate. Even MA Man who has powerful air magic himself. I have also been very lucky in magic sites I have found, giving me easy access to every shpere of magic. I would have been in serious trouble otherwise, MA Caelum only has Air/Water really. Finally I have benefited by having strong reliable allies who are happy to trade magic items with me.

Interesting. I consider my own career in that game luckier than anyone deserves.

My luck has been manyfold:
Strategical, weak/stong/entangled neighbours whose homes I could take easily.
Magical, access to all magic but blood, nice sites.
Random stuff, nice events, and other random effects. Bad events on my neighbors finishing them off or blocking them.

Wonder if C'tis and Pangaea feels the same. Did they get lucky, or did they get stong by themselves