LOS and spotting

[MajorDisaster]

"Normally "discussions" about game systems tend to involve people who have never been in a tank, in combat."

Sorry, I dont realise that was the rules here - Keep your mouth shut about gameplay unless you're ex-forces?
(sigh), my comment about "cheating" was a purely personal view on gaming in general. Again, hush ma mouth...
But you're totally right! If I had serious pot shots taken at me, the last thing I'd wanna do is try to re-enact the experience. Having my butt roasted for politicians' Real Wargames? Ha, ha you gotta be kidding me :-) Nah, I just havent grown out of playing toy soldiers... or arguing(joke).
OFF TOPIC - And the TT is for lunatics - all those dry stone walls? I done Mad Sunday a few times - scarier than your 1st solo lap of the Nurburgring ;-)

[DRG]

Well "MajorDisaster" if you want to take a comment I made to one person and turn it on yourself be my guest. If your names not dlasov that remark wasn't directed at you personally.

You are free to express whatever opinions on the game you have if you are "ex-forces" or not but if someone who HAS been in a tank, in combat, comments on an issue that holds a BIT more water than someone who hasn't...... yes?

Don't expect me to sit back and not respond when I think you don't understand something which is what I feel is happening here. You said it feels like cheating to adjust the preferences, I said don't let it feel that way, that's why the controls are there as we have been pointing out to people for years.

Don

[chuckfourth]

Hi all
I might add something. Part of our training was (in full kit and olive greens) to pour a bottle of water over us, roll around in the dirt and hide 20 paces in front of the instructors I hid in plain sight in the shadow of a thin bush the size of a crouching man, no one saw me. The next part of the excercise is to inch forward which most of us did without being detected however a quick move makes you visible immediately. The point being that its movement that the human eye sees. It is amazing what you cant see until it moves. The game models this very well. Again fatigue always plays a part. After an 8 kilometer patrol in full kit in 45 degrees celsius you dont see a lot. I magine it becomes the same after a few hours being jolted around in a vehicle going cross country at speed.
Best Chuck.

[narwan]

I noticed something very similar when I was in school as a kid. Some kids were playing hide and seek near the bycicle stands. One was hiding behind two bicycles parked just in front of the stands. Now two bycicles are just some frame work and weels with a whole lot of air in between. Not much to hide behind. But I didn't see him till I almost walked into him. Now that startled me. Okay you say, I wasn't paying attention so I was suprised. True but I did look right at the bikes as they were in my way (as I said in front of the stands instead of parked in the stands). When looking at them I didn't look PAST them. Your mind tends not to. Just like you tend to look at a window at first instead of through it, or at a tree line instead of into the treeline. The best part though was that when I was startled the other kid doing the seeking looked straigth at me and the boy who was kneeling at my feet. The 'seeker' had a straight LOS from about 50-60 feet away to the 'hider' who was only hidden by the two bikes and he did NOT see him. He was actively looking for people and did not spot him. And I checked it a bit later, if you know he's there he's clearly visible. But you tend to see what you think you ought to see, not what's really there. Sometimes hiding in plain sight really works. Logic isn't the only factor here.

Narwan

[dlazov]

Desert scrub, yes.

The thing that most war gamers fail to realize and the one important piece missing from the Steel Panthers games is dynamic time. What this means is that in the game world you move one unit at a time, and when [censored] hit's the fan, you can adjust a hell of lot easier then in reality, likewise in reality, it's for keeps so your not going to be flying down a roadway full throttle (unless the [censored] General in charges gives your platoon of M1A1's direct orders to do so) trying to draw fire, but more seriously the whole freaking company moves at a certain time and fires as a unit together.

There is no rally phase, prep-fire phase, you move I move, it's all at once and when a tank gets smoked in reality the crew is probably dead and you knew them...and if Steel Panthers started doing that [censored], I probably would quite the game (too close for comfort), but it's a game and you to realize I have been war gaming since I was 11 in 78 and have always loved the military, until I joined and had to clean the ****ters and other things...been there done that, now I can kill Germans and Russians in a war I was not part of and it's recreational. I do have SPMBT, but it holds very little interest for me.

Anyway I'll shut up now, I have talked to much...later

[dlazov]

On topic

LOS from a tank

One tank is a sitting duck.

Driver has (if he is lucky) 3 periscopes about 2 to 2.5 inches in height and six to 10 inches in length to see the world to drive in, that is looking for [censored] not to hit, don't want to throw a track in the heat.

Gunner has one freaking hole to look through, but his job is to hunt for [censored] to kill.

Loader see [censored] unless on a road march and want to expose their noggin to buzzers, there job is to feed the beast.

TC has to be the eyes and keep his wing man in view, 2 are better then one.

Plt.Leader has to move the platoon and keep them together 4 are better then 2 (plus he has to keep his boss (CO) off his ***).

really that's it.

Now throw in lots and lots of smoke, arty all over the place, night, and other bad guys trying to kill you (remember you really don't want to die, so your amped) and some other [censored] Col. wants you to do such and such which is really not a safe thing, but...

Now your going 35-40, Narwin is right, [censored] that moves can be seen, but from a moving tank it's still not easy to spot, the gunner or TC has the best chance of spotting stuff, the only bad guys the drivers look for (now a days anyways) is smoke, smoke and a flash is very bad, and everybody better hang on tight, cause he is swerving, smoke and flash is bad, AT tow, etc. You guys think we drive around overrunning infantry, no freaking way, we park it and blast them bastards with all we got, infantry are killing bastards, the only thing worse then crunchies is freaking jets, and in the last two wars we were the ones that had jets. Arty not so bad for tankers, but crunchies hate it....

done

[evan]

And Sorry to harp on but

can somebody explain with the above how a stationary infantry squard thats in a forest hex and hasn't fired can be spotted and fired on from 450 metre's (nine hexes)?

Or suggest how I can see what the XXXXXXX was closer than that to see the unit?

[Arvin]

Hi
Hopefully I'm not talking out of turn, but I look at situations like the spotted squad as just bad luck. I like to think that one of the poor slobs had a tarantula walk across his neck or put his hand on a snake and just got spooked. It's mighty easy to spot someone who's jumping and hollering.
I've had some of my units make some great spots like that.
I figure it all evens out in the end.

Mike

[evan]

I'm sure that it does even out but that post was a heat of the moment thing after a battle that makes continuing that particular long campaign not worth the effort; and had me tempted to delete the programme and find something better to do. At the moment most of the luck running my way in these games is bad.

[dlazov]

evan,

if your luck is bad and you feel that the game is way to hard (you should not feel like deleting a game like this if it feels too hard and difficult for you), instead start by turning all the user preference settings down to 50% or so and see how it goes first.

There used to be a fine Italian Gentleman in the old DOS group, I wish he were still around, he was very good at teaching new people things and coaching them along. It's been a couple of years and I can't remember his call sign, but he was a very nice chap.