spob34

[brummbaer]

Hello all,
Thanks to the staff for the great work.
I just wish to correct some language mistakes in the italian oob.

Unit:
113-222-223-224-762-763-764 SM.82 Canguru -> Canguro;
155 Ingegnere CCNN -> Genieri CCNN;
209-210-211-212 Br.20M Cigogna -> Cicogna;
267 ParaCacciacarra -> Par�Cacciacarri;
165-166-167 Bicicletta means just bicicle, you may want name it Fanteria ciclista (bike infantry);
277-280 Ricerca MC -> Fanteria motociclista (Motorbike inf) or Esploratori (espl) motociclisti (Motorbike recon) as you prefer;
285-286-287-288 Fortificata Casa -> Casa fortificata;
295 Art Marittima -> Art Costiera;
345 Fiamme Verde -> Fiamme Verdi;
381 Spelonca alpino -> Grotta fortificata (fortified cave in rocky hills);
455 Maro Ingegnere -> Mar� Genieri;
510-511 delete "di"
520 Caccia DD should have 127mm;
521 Incrociatore CL should have 152mm;
522 Incrociatore CA should have 203mm;
523 Corazzata V BB should have 381mm, avalable from 5/40 onward;
524 Corazzata BB (305mm) available till 1/1937;
525 Corazzata BB (should be 320mm)available from 6/1937 onward;
550 Arditi Tiratore -> Ardito Tiratore;
675-676-740-741 expl. -> espl.
690 Ingegnere -> Genieri
449-450-452-453-455-456-458-459-792-793-810-811-812 Maro-> Mar�

[DRG]

brummbaer said:
165-166-167 Bicicletta means just bicicle, you may want name it Fanteria ciclista (bike infantry);
277-280 Ricerca MC -> Fanteria motociclista (Motorbike inf) or Esploratori (espl) motociclisti (Motorbike recon) as you prefer;
285-286-287-288 Fortificata Casa -> Casa fortificata;
295 Art Marittima -> Art Costiera;
345 Fiamme Verde -> Fiamme Verdi;
381 Spelonca alpino -> Grotta fortificata (fortified cave in rocky hills);
455 Maro Ingegnere -> Mar� Genieri;
510-511 delete "di"
520 Caccia DD should have 127mm;
521 Incrociatore CL should have 152mm;
522 Incrociatore CA should have 203mm;
523 Corazzata V BB should have 381mm, avalable from 5/40 onward;
524 Corazzata BB (305mm) available till 1/1937;
525 Corazzata BB (should be 320mm)available from 6/1937 onward;
550 Arditi Tiratore -> Ardito Tiratore;
675-676-740-741 expl. -> espl.
690 Ingegnere -> Genieri
449-450-452-453-455-456-458-459-792-793-810-811-812 Maro-> Mar�

Thanks for the "corrections" but in the case of "Mar�" for example, surely you must have noticed by now that the game only uses a standard, NON-inflected alphabet ? There are no Umlauts etc used in the German OOB on any other OOB for the same reason. Those letter characters do not exist in the games alphabet and if used will cause the game to crash.

As well, there are name length limitations so "Fanteria motociclista" simple will not fit into the space available for names in the game nor will "Fanteria ciclista" which is why terms like " Bicicletta" and "Ricerca MC" are used instead. The same issue applies to Spelonca alpino -> Grotta fortificata. What you think is correct simply will not fit.



Don

[brummbaer]

I wrote the whole names to let you cut them short as you see fit. I didn't see the accented characters issue though, so I stand corrected, but don't be so sharp.

[DRG]

Some things just do not stand up well to being shortened especially when dealing with different languages. Yes, "Bicicletta" could be "Fant.Ciclista" ( that contraction will actually fit ) but it's been "Bicicletta" for years without complaint and we've had Italian speaking playtesters. Art Marittima -> Art Costiera; "Marine artillery" vs Costal artillery. Yes, I suppose that's somewhat more accurate. Ricerca MC could be just "Motociclisti" but the original term has been in the OOB for years as well and was intended to represent it's scouting function I could use "Espl. MC" but really.....which is "more correct" ???

[brummbaer]

You already include "Art Costiera" (unit 336-337) so you just have two names for the same thing, though unit 295 is an AAMG emplacement. As for the bicicletta etc, sure it isn't an issue to the game in itself, just for the taste of it: what would you see better, moving a bycicle or a bike squad? Nothing more than this. I don't know how much of an issue it is for you to change that, you see if it's worth.

[Marek_Tucan]

Well, it's mostly a tiring and boring work after which someone will for sure come and ask why unit xxx is called yyy when in last version it was zzz

[Arralen]

Some issues from the Italian OOB spob34,
game version v3.00 (OOB version "April 2008" .. no version number given any more, contrary to the manual?!)


U#423 "3RO 75L46"
SP-AT Vehicle [Type 52] ... but 0 AP/Sabot/Heat ammo

Update: see 2 posts further down ...
U#497 "TL-37 75L27"
same type [52], same gun (75L46)
- there's no 75L27 gun in the italian OOB, but doubt L46 and L27 are anywhere similar in performance! Btw., I googled for 75L27 and came up with nothing?

U#484 "Tl-37 AS-20"
same autocannon (W#005 Breda CM 20L65) as U#475, yet it has the 40HE/5AP ammo loadout of inf/AA guns instead of a 20HE/25AP loadout.
Both are SP-AT Vehicle [Type 52], btw. ...

U#57 "3RO 90L53"
is [UnitClass 19 =Tank Destroyer Tank Clone] but should be [UnitClass 52 =AT(Wheeled) Wheeled vehicle AT type] as it is wheeled, unless this is an formation issue ?!


misc. :
There are tons of weapon-specific bunkers and generic "Art Costiera" ... plus ONE "Art Marittima" (sea arty) and "Difesa Costiera" (coastal defense) each [Type 254]
.. and some generic fortifications [Type 0] .. maybe throw out 50% of them unless you need them for the AI ?!

U#86 and U#135 are basically the same tank, one available from 6/42-12/42, the other one in 46. Why not extend the first from 6/42-12/46 ?

Why is "semovente" some abbr. as SMV and sometimes spelled out completely ?

[DRG]

Arralen said:
Some issues from the Italian OOB spob34,
game version v3.00 (OOB version "April 2008" .. no version number given any more, contrary to the manual?!)

****** No...... we have always given a date as the version number but we used to include the actual day the OOB was altered and now we just go by the month and the Year so what you used to see as "Version 28/April/06" was NOT "version 28 produced on April 2006". It was produced on April 28, 2006. I dropped the day to save space on that info line and to simplify it as the actual day is unimportant.

Arralen said:
U#423 "3RO 75L46"
SP-AT Vehicle [Type 52] ... but 0 AP/Sabot/Heat ammo

******Yep, and it's been that way for years ( over 6 years at the very minimum )My first guess is it should have AP but seeing as it's been that way for quite awhile I will assume instead that I'll need to dig into it a litte deeper

Arralen said:
U#497 "TL-37 75L27"
same type [52], same gun (75L46)
- there's no 75L27 gun in the italian OOB, but doubt L46 and L27 are anywhere similar in performance! Btw., I googled for 75L27 and came up with nothing?

********** I'll look into it.

Arralen said:
U#484 "Tl-37 AS-20"
same autocannon (W#005 Breda CM 20L65) as U#475, yet it has the 40HE/5AP ammo loadout of inf/AA guns instead of a 20HE/25AP loadout.
Both are SP-AT Vehicle [Type 52], btw. ...

***** I'll look into it

Arralen said:
U#57 "3RO 90L53"
is [UnitClass 19 =Tank Destroyer Tank Clone] but should be [UnitClass 52 =AT(Wheeled) Wheeled vehicle AT type] as it is wheeled, unless this is an formation issue ?!

*********** If you look at that unit more closely you will see the moveclass IS "wheeled" for that unit. It will be a formation issue and exact unit class name is irrelavant.

Arralen said:
misc. :
There are tons of weapon-specific bunkers and generic "Art Costiera" ... plus ONE "Art Marittima" (sea arty) and "Difesa Costiera" (coastal defense) each [Type 254]
.. and some generic fortifications [Type 0] .. maybe throw out 50% of them unless you need them for the AI ?!

*******No chance of that happening. Why would more choices be an issue ? It seems we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. If I took them out ( and I have NO intention of doing so ) someone else would ***** that they we removed them.

Arralen said:
U#86 and U#135 are basically the same tank, one available from 6/42-12/42, the other one in 46. Why not extend the first from 6/42-12/46 ?

********* The version in Unit 86 was added sometime between now and Dec 2002 as a replacement for another unit that was removed and that provided rough continuity in the OOB on the remote chance that unit had been used in a sceanrio. Yes, it is somewhat redundant but to anyone actually playing the game it means absolutely nothing at all.

Arralen said:
Why is "semovente" some abbr. as SMV and sometimes spelled out completely ?

*******Becasue sometimes we need to use the appreviation to fit the unit name into space available. Unit 86 is a prime example "Semovente M.42 75L34" is too long a name so in that case "SMV M.42 75L34" is used. Sometimes we have the space and that's why Unit 89 is "Semovente M10" instead of "SMV M10"

Don

[Arralen]

Actually, there seems to be some mixup regarding Inf/AT/AA guns in the Italian OOB.
Might even go back as far as May 20, 1943 http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/t...lled-guns.html

The report mentions 2 truck-mounted 75/27 guns and claimes one is an AA gun made by Krupp. Yet, as far as I could find out from various sources on the net, the L/27 build by Krupp was a export model Inf gun. It was obsolete in WW2, but the Italians had nothing to replace it with and developed a HEAT shell to make it more usuable against (british) tanks.
Wasn't able to find the (horsedrawn) 75/L27 Inf gun in the OOB, and the self-propelled versions lack the HEAT ammo.
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/show...?t=4443&page=2
http://www.comandosupremo.com/forum/...hp?f=20&t=2527


U#497 "TL-37 75L27" (from posting above)
- uses 75mm L46 M34 gun (w#124) instead of the indicated 75mm L27 Mod.34 (w#102)

I doubt L46 and L27 are anywhere similar in performance, yet they and some more are in OOB 34 ... . I think the L27 is the inf gun, and the L46 and L60 are the AA guns. Their (obviously) generic performance values should be tweaked accordingly.

U#008 & U#010 "Ceirano 75L27" uses 75mm L27 Mod.34 (w#102)
PEN 2:10 Range 75:46

U#423 "3RO 75/L46" uses 75mm L46 Mod.34 (w#124)
PEN 2:10 Range 75:46

U#425 "Ansldo 75mm M34" AA/AT gun uses 75mm L60 Mod.34 (w#115)
PEN 2:10 Range 90:46 .. btw., it's "Ansaldo" and this abbr. to squeeze the name into 15 characters is plain ugly ..

Btw, those sources hint the existance of HEAT shells for inf guns (not that high numbers where actually delivered, though .. italian crews improvised by firing HE shells without fuze?). I would suggest adding low numbers of AP and HEAT shells to the guns in question. Obviously, somebody already tried this, but why SABOT ammo was chosen I don't know ... the HEAT shells where streamlined! [ U#321,323,325,327,329 ]



Some more possible errors :

U#517-519 "Pattuglia" (Patrol) is size "1"
Should be "0" .. e.g. USMC (OOB013) patrol U#053 is size "0" but carries many more weapons and ammo ..

U#332 "C/C 50L60 PaK" has radio code "0"
Yet, #330 and #331 have code "1".
Looks like someone tried some wizardry to make the smaller guns sometimes show up later in the war, when the PaK 50 was already available but maybe in insufficent numbers .. With AT guns spread out to "Anti-Tank Guns", "AT-Guns" and improvised AT guns (inf guns), I wonder if this really works out ... .

[thatguy96]

Arralen said:
U#517-519 "Pattuglia" (Patrol) is size "1"
Should be "0" .. e.g. USMC (OOB013) patrol U#053 is size "0" but carries many more weapons and ammo ..

Its the other way around. The USMC one should be size 1. 6+ men are size 1, 5 or less are size 0. At least this is the convention.