Vampires? - Page 2

Nerfix · #11 October 26th, 2006, 10:54 AM

But then people would just take a biiiit more worse scales...

UninspiredName · #12 October 26th, 2006, 11:21 AM

I suppose the main draw for Vampires is that they keep coming back. And, since they can fly, you can just make them attack the rear mages. I do agree, though, they should be one or two levels lower... I really like Lords and Queens, though, but that's possibly because Death and Blood are my two favorite schools of magic. And, if you use Pale Ones like me, you really need fliers.

And yes, Vampires in D&D are really challenging. Our DM once talked of making a city of them as an adventure sight...

Nerfix · #13 October 26th, 2006, 11:31 AM

Nay, you need Magma Children, and then some more, and some Ancient Lords with Brimstone Boots and Charcoal Shields and Swords of Swiftness, and a bit more Magma Children and a King of Elemental Fire for the kicks, and a bit more Magma Children...

Cainehill · #14 October 26th, 2006, 01:10 PM

Quote:

WraithLord said:
I like them better with ethereality, and I think VQ could have kept hers as well together with having her cost raised some more.

With the Dom2 patches and CB mod, the VQ didn't seem particularly overpowered or underpriced anymore - one very rarely saw her used in CB games, and yet she was nerfed again, while All Father went back to uber-status.

Nerfix · #15 October 26th, 2006, 01:39 PM

Who exactly uses Allfather? He's not a W/F pretender now is he?

FrankTrollman · #16 October 26th, 2006, 02:35 PM

VQs were never that big of a deal!

There is a small, but extremely vocal group of Dominons 2 players who use VQs virtually exclusively and compare sizes a lot and complain about how broken they are. It flies and it is stealthy, and for a very specific strategy it is the only and therefore "best" option.

So the designers get bombarded with tirades about how brokenly powerful the Vampire Queen is, and they raised her price to 150. But the people using that strategy still couldn't use anything else so they still complained. And complained and complained and... you get the idea.

Vampire Queens aren't that good. They've never been that good. They weren't all that and a bag of chips when they were Ethereal and cost 125 points. They weren't all that when they were Ethereal and cost 150 points. And now they aren't even Ethereal and they cost 175! Vampire Queens are total crap and aren't good for anything.

Even in Dominions 2 you could get better scales, better dominion, and better magic with a Prince of Death. You could get better Ethereality and Magic with a Ghost King. The Vampire Queen's only meaningful advantage is that she's thematically awesome - especially for Black Forest Ulm.

But no. People complain and complain and complain... and now Black Forest can't have nice things. I hope you're happy.

-Frank

Nerfix · #17 October 26th, 2006, 02:45 PM

Well, the problem was mostly that she was ethereal, flying, lifedraining, *immortal* and could pick magics perfectly suited for buffs. And with Dominions 2 research times and spell placements it meant that in few turns she could research a vast array of buffs for herself and we all known how few things can stand up against an ethereal ironskinned quickened mirror imaged fire shielded lucky life drainer.

The VQ version 1 w/o Ethereality & Dom 3 research would be good IMHO.

FrankTrollman · #18 October 26th, 2006, 02:56 PM

Oh honestly who gives a crap? By the time you're slapping all that magic on somebody you might as well add "body ethereal" and start with any creature at all.

There is exactly one spell on that list that uses any of the VQ's actual abilities, and it's "Life Drain". She's a Blood God and your dream list uses no blood at all! The Vampire Queen is used for these comparisons because thematically she is awesome, not because of any intrinsic capabilities of the chasis. After all, you just described a character that would go down to a Bane Lord with a Dusk Dagger. I'm severely unimpressed.

The legend of how awesome Vampire Queens are was started by a man who played Ashen Fields Ermor and cheated for hundreds of gems starting from turn 1! Sure, he was unstoppable, but it wasn't because of the Vampire Queen.

The Ancient Olhm can do everything the VQ is claimed to do except that he starts with magic that is actually useful (Water and Earth) and a decent pile of hit points. Vampire Queens have an awesome mystique about them, but they aren't even particularly good unless you happen to be a blood power.

Their one unique ability is that they are a potential Blood God who has hands (for hammers) and is available to people who aren't Pangaea. That's right, the VQ is and always has been a consolation prize for not having the Lord of the Wild. Now that the Deva is in play there would be even less nations that would care about the Vampire Queen even if she didn't get nerfed to the point where she totally sucks. And not in the good way that VQs are famous for.

-Frank

Nerfix · #19 October 26th, 2006, 03:12 PM

Actually, no, you couldn't. It took a mix of paths that would allow buffs that could be afforded by rare few pretenders, namely VQ, GK, rainbows and nagas.

VQ was naturaly ethereal and that alone is a huge bonus against troops without magic weapons. Alteration 2 (60 research points in Dominions 2) would allow her to cast Stoneskin (armor), Mirror Image (drastic decrease on chance of getting hit) and Quickness (def/attack bonuses and two actions per turn). If you took a smitter of Fire with her and researched Enchament 1 you could cast Fireshield and effectively do damage while defending. And this isn't particulary expensive in design points or magetime.

The Ancient Olm cannot do all the VQ could potentially do because he has harder time getting the multidute of magic paths. You'll be paying through your nose to get a 1E 1W (and Quickness was nerfed) 1/2 A and the Olm is not Ethereal to start with like VQ was. You seem to ignore how good ability being ethereal is, especially when that can be topped with a damage shield, mirror image, stoneskin and so on. High HP is not that helpful, especially since Olm is easy to gang on and gets no recuperation or regeneration. Oh, you seem to ignore that VQ was and is IMMORTAL meaning that she could joyously ignore the possibility of death in friendly dominion AND afflictions!

And I don't get what being a Blood power has to do with VQ's since their best potential abilities (low pathcosts thus magic versatile thus the buff mishmash, life drain from the start, flying, stealth, immortality and etherality) has nothing at all to do with Blood magic. In fact you're propably better off ignoring her starting blood and death magic.

I do agree that VQ was nerefed to oblivion now.

quantum_mechani · #20 October 26th, 2006, 03:18 PM

Quote:

FrankTrollman said:

So the designers get bombarded with tirades about how brokenly powerful the Vampire Queen is, and they raised her price to 150. But the people using that strategy still couldn't use anything else so they still complained. And complained and complained and... you get the idea.

-Frank

Actually, I'm fairly sure the second nerf to VQs came from IW playing againt them.