Example unit graphics from our mod

[Leif_-]

DominionsFan said:
Well Leif if you think so, please show me some official words about it. You won't be able to, because there isn't any.

Do I have an authoriative source stating that "using photos of painted miniatures in a game mod is a violation of copyright"? Of course not. For one thing the situation is so narrow that there's not likely to be any case law on it. This is "below the radar" so to speak. Secondly, the statement is too general to make an absolute verdict about it -- such use may or may not be a violation depending on the particulars of the case.

However, there are several good, authoriative sources on copyright law out there. Most deal with the US copyright law and while the specifics might not apply to where you live, copyright law has been pretty much harmonised throughout most of the Western world and the general concepts are mostly the same.

If you want to read up on fair use you can start with the Wikipedia article which has a list of other resources at the bottom.

You might look at this checklist from Purdue universite and see how many points you have favouring that your use is fair and how many points you have opposing that. You might be surprised.

You are also wrong in a point. If Illwinter would use up the photos about miniatures, that might be wrong. [I'm not sure about it at all] However modders never make any profit from adding miniature photos to various game mods. That is not illegal.

Non-commercial use (or more specifically, non-for-profit use) is not excused from copyright. Whether the use is commercial or not is taken into consideration when judging if it's fair use or not, but that the use is found to be non-commercial is not sufficent to deem it fair use.

Like I said, there are countless examples, that miniature photos were used up in player made mods for various games, and no one had any problems with it ever.

And prior to Grand Upright v. Warner in 1991 there were countless examples of musicians using samples from other artists' copyrighted works. As I said above, just because it has not been taken to court (yet) does not mean it is legal.

Secondly, many experienced photoshoppers could draw an unit like this about a miniature, it would just take much more time then using up an existing photo. I could do it even. What would you say then? Illegal?

Yes. It doesn't matter wheter you photograph, Xerox, trace or draw free hand, you're still copying. The question isn't the method you've used to create your own work but wheter a) your use of the orignal copyrighted material is fair use and b) your work can be considered derivative.

Anyways there is no point to argue over this, since this is certainly not illegal, trust me.

I see no reason to trust you on this. My own understanding of copyright law suggests you're wrong, you do not appear as an authority on the subject and much of your argumentation in this discussion is flawed.

However, I agree that there seems no point in continuing to argue over this, as it seems unlikely that either of us will be conviced by the other's arguments.

[DominionsFan]

Leif, that is your subjective opinion. I accept it as an opinion, nothing more. My own understanding is that you are very wrong in this question. This has nothing to do with copyright laws.

[Arralen]

Leif is very much right about US/EU copyright law.

DF, sorry to say that, but you don't have a clue.

[Ballbarian]

In my experience, Wizards of the Coast are quicker than most to whip out the lawyers, but as a general rule, if you are not using the material in a product for profit or under a large open source gnu project with a high profile, don't worry about it.

[DominionsFan]

Arralen said:
Leif is very much right about US/EU copyright law.

DF, sorry to say that, but you don't have a clue.

I understand the copyright rules, however I don't think so that using up photos or draw unit images about miniature figures would break any copyright rules.
How is it possible that so many people used them up in various mods in various games? Also if you are allowed to share the photos freely on the internet and put it up to your website, even modify the image if you want without any problems, I don't see anything wrong with adding an image to a game mod, what is absolutely free.

Anyways, I just wrote an e-mail to Wizards of the Coast about this. They will give us a proper answer.

[Nerfix]

DominionsFan said:How is it possible that so many people used them up in various mods in various games?

Easy, they all break the laws. 10, 000 16 yo finns getting drunk every weekend doesn't make use of alcohol by minors ay more legal, neither does 50, 000 Limewire users make warez any more legal.

[DominionsFan]

Nerfix said:

Easy, they all break the laws. 10, 000 16 yo finns getting drunk every weekend doesn't make use of alcohol by minors ay more legal, neither does 50, 000 Limewire users make warez any more legal.

Well I really wonder what will be the official answer from Wizards of the Coast. I will copy here everything what will be in the mail. They will reply within 2 days if true.
Maybe I was wrong, since most of you are saying that it's against the copyright laws.
If that is true, we will photoshop the in-game units, instead of using miniatures.

[DominionsFan]

Fantastic I just got their reply.

"Questions in regards to legal use need to be directed to our legal department. The only way to reach the legal department is to send in a physical letter to our legal department."

[Gandalf Parker]

Oh great. Like it will do any good to try and have the conversation with a completely non-tech legal department. That kills most of the arguments you might give.

[BigJMoney]

Haha. They might be non-tech, but they are the legal department for the world's #1 role-playing and hobby gaming franchise. If anyone knows anything about this, you can bet they do. Also, I'd like to point out that Leif's information is not his subjective opinion. He is giving you helpful information, DF. It's not what you wish to hear, but it's helpful.

This reminds me of the story of a man who asked his father how to get rich when he was a young boy. His father told him he needed to discover a way how to "make money". He and his best friend thought for some time and then they became excited when they came up with their very own idea. They went around the neighborhood, collecting the used toothpaste containers from their neighbors. They told their neighbors they were starting a business project, and they'd like some help. Their neighbors were encouraging to the boys, so they assisted them. Eventually, the boys rounded up enough empty toothpaste tubes to begin execution of their money making plan. It turns out their plan was to melt down the nickel tubes and mold them into coins. They had literally discovered a way to "make money". Needless to say, their father had to tell them it was illegal. My point is, whether something is illegal or not is not someone's opinion. Maybe Leif is incorrect, but he is not stating an opinion. He is stating the law.

=$= Big J Money =$=

PS -- He is not incorrect. However, if you feel that what you are doing is not immoral you could probably go ahead and do it, and I seriously doubt you would ever incur legal action. Even if you did, the worst that would happen is Wizards would contact you and threaten a lawsuit if you do not remove your mod from development/distribution. This would be a "better to ask forgiveness than permission" situation. That decision is yours to make. I personally don't reccomend making breaking the law a habit.