OT: North Korea Missile Tests

[Atrocities]

North Korea? You mean too tell me that there is still a North Korea controlled by a dictator with ICBM's, a million man army, and a nuke, bent upon being a a dick to the rest of the world? Hum, sounds more like a 007 bad guy than a real dictator of a real country to me. They no scare me, let China deal with them.

[Colonel]

bah! Either have China annex North Korea or the US should turn the country into a nice parking lot with convential bombs.

[TerranC]

Colonel said:
bah! Either have China annex North Korea or the US should turn the country into a nice parking lot with convential bombs.

And people wonder why the younger generation in South Korea has turned so Anti-American.

The only solution to all this is hope nothing bad happens until Kim Jong-Il dies.

After that, who knows what might happen. China could occupy North Korea and turn it into Chaoxian province; whoever takes over could choose to reunify with the south peacefully; whoever takes over chooses to go nuts and reinstigate the Korean War and get promptly killed (but not before taking a lot of people with him); or something else we've not contemplated.

[TerranC]

Long post folks. If you don't care, which you shouldn't mostly, stay clear of this one.

Renegade 13 said:
...the North Korean missile tests yesterday... Should they be construed as a direct provocation,

Direct provocation to whom? Not to the US, with which the north koreans want to establish bilateral talksm either as a ploy to get more time or more concessions. ROK? I don't think provoking their "ethnic brothers" would be very good propaganda. The PRC, their primary and only ally? No. Japan? Russia? Those two nations are nothing but scapegoats to the Norks, so no. This test is nothing but a tantrum, a show to get attention from the world: the fact that all missiles landed in international waters should show you that clearly.

or merely as the right of a sovereign nation to act militarily as they wish as long as no other nation is harmed?

Sovereign nation, my foot. North Korea is the most illegitimate regime to ever exist on this earth. But no, even if the government of North Korea was however legit, it does not excuse such actions.

Should military action against North Korea be contemplated, or should they be ignored since they likely just want more leverage in future negotiations??

Military action? In the current state of affaires East Asia is experiencing? No. Absolutely not. Doing so will result in a brand new definition of Quagmire. Ignoring won't do much either, as simply not acknowledging this will lead to greater action on the part of the North Koreans. Something must be done: something along the lines of sanctions (as useless as they are).

Captain Kwok said:
but I think that any sovereign country has the right to conduct tests of their weapon systems.

Like I said above - don't fool yourself into thinking that the current regime up there is in any way legitimate.

thorfrog said:
I think they have a right to defend their selves but if they violate the sovernty of another countries air space their should be retaliation.

Sure, retaliation sound all well and good, but remember: 10 million people (including a large number of american expats and military personel) lie in range of Nork artillery. Much more allied civilians/personel lie in range of Nork SCUDs. And that's just the human costs. Economic costs of failed retaliation could be enormous in a region that is host to some of the largest economies in the world. Think about that next time you talk about bombing north korea into the stone age.

I can see it now, NK sends a test balistic missile over Japan and it crashes into a suburb.

And Japan does nothing, for if it tries to respond in kind (and it can, repeatedly) it will give the Chinese political capital to enter the fray.

I don't see the point in NK continuing to persue the nuke option when their people are starving. Eventually they will go bankrupt.

Geo answered why the norks will continue whatever they have in nukes quite well; and you don't want them going bankrupt, as regime collapse is never a pretty thing for its population and its neighbours.

geoschmo said:
The point is simply to maintain control over their people. The nukes are a deterrant to anyone outside that might be considering intervening.

Bingo, right on the money.

Glyn said:
It�s difficult to trust future negotiations if they break their promises.

You say that as if you expected them to keep their word.

thorfrog said:I have to disagree with you. Developing nukes has nothing to do with keeping their people in line, it only makes the west think twice about attacking NK.

It keeps people in line because a nuclear deterrent scores bonus propaganda points; the fact that they have developed nukes make them think they are one of the big boys of the world, which is what their main ideology, Juche, is all about.

The creation of tanks, jets, and troops will on the other hand keep the people in line to a point.

May I remind you that the Korean peninsula is quite devoid of resources, that the industry in North Korea is outdated soviet stuff, and that the scientific knowledge and the engineering know-how to create such things is non-existant in the KWP?

And I have to say that even in this day and age the people can still rise up and overthrow their government. But, it helps when the military are on your side. Remember, the military are made up of the people. If enough rise up they will take notice. But when your starving and forced to eat grass that may not be much of an option.

The military is made up of the people, and NK's people is best described ideologically imprinted. Half a century's worth of total isolation from the world and repeated enforced doctrinization have left these people not knowing anything else except: 1) Kim Il-Sung is their eternal saviour 2) North Korea is the best place in the world to live in 3) Their comrades to the south are under the evil spell of American/Japanese capitalists and imperialists. People like that are not prone on rebelling anytime soon.

Either way I feel NK on the path to self distruction. If only China would stop financing them. Does China really want their tiny neighbor a nuke threat?

On the one hand, a North Korea that is unpredictable and is controlled by China gives them considerable leverage in the international diplomatic stage. On the other, North's going nuclear is making other nations think about their nuclear options, including Japan and the ROC, otherwise known as Taiwan. This does not bode well for the PRC.

Phoenix-D said:
They prop NK up because the alternative in their view is a heavy US military presence on their border.

And the loss of a client state, the loss of an ideological "brother", and possible irredentism a unified Korea could field in regards to Manchuria, but yeah, mostly for that reason.

ToddT said:
South korea also does not want to see NK collapse since the y will end being brunt of the fallout, there also the ones under threat by the nukes if hostilites break out (not mention Seol (sp) is in range of NK artillery, estimates 50'000 SK civilian causulties would occur within the first day of a conflict.

Much more than just 50K, but yes. Absolutely right on this.

The N. Korean leader is perfeclty happy to let his people starve (mostly outside the cities) for its not his fault its the result of the evil and vile west (US) trying to exterminate them, and he is their protector, their still alive aren't they.

I'll assume that that last bit was sarcastic, but yes, that seems to be the rational the ruling elite has.

Renegade 13 said:
I think North Korea has the right to do whatever military tests they feel like doing. What country has the right to prevent another sovereign nation from developing weaponry that most of the world already possesses?

Unpalatable, yes. Irresponsible, of course. Sovereign, absolutely not.

Like I mentioned before, as North Korea is in the middle of one of the most dynamic places on earth, there is a lot riding on what they do/how this gets resolved.

They are no threat currently

Ha! They are peddling meth to Australia and Japan; They are selling Scuds to Yemen, Iran, and Syria; They have kidnapped countless South Korean and Japanese nationals; They possess vast stockpiles of biological and chemical weapons they can sell at a premium; They have sent commandos to recon the south through tunnels and minisubs that have terrorized the nation; they have created quality forgeries of US currency that they can supply/use to whoever, do whatever they want.

Do I need to go on?

and they will not use nuclear weapons unless they're invaded.

Except lob it over Japan whenever they feel like it. BTW, when Japan is gone and ROK is irradiated, say goodbye to the east asian beef market.

After all, if they were stupid enough to nuke someone in North America, they have to know their entire nation would be blown back to the stone age.

They don't need to, but that's not so easy to do. See above.

I also think they're doing it simply for leverage in future negotiations. Every time they restart their nuclear efforts, or launch an intercontinental missile, the world freaks out, and tries to get them to stop. They only stop when concessions are made to them, usually in the form of international aid. Either way, they win...

That's their game.

unless you pay them no attention.

Then North Korea goes columbine and starts killing indiscriminately. Then you've got a problem.

[Renegade 13]

You know TC, I think you're right. Guess I don't have sufficient knowledge of the detailed situation in the region!

[Artaud]

Well, as someone who does know a great deal about that region of the world and North Korea in particular, I say that a sovereign nation has the right to test whatever it wants to test.

It's almost funny that Japan, considering its long and rich history of "involvement" on the Korean peninsula, would now huff and puff about potential "threats" from North Korea.

And it is hysterically funny that the USA, which has more soldiers stationed beyond its borders than any other country, has expressed its desire to eliminate several governments that it does not like, has invaded and occupied (and will continue to occupy indefinitely) one country for no reason at all, and is engaged in the biggest military buildup in human history, has the nerve to express dismay when other countries test weapons (North Korea), buy weapons (Venezuela) and modernize their military forces (China).

The US does not have the right to give orders to other countries and dominate the air, land, and sea of planet Earth. It does not have the right to dominate space. The Bush regime has repeatedly said that that level of domination is its goal.

No wonder the world is afraid.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

The tension is rather like a guy in a bar showing off his gun.

And then someone else says 'Hey, I got one too!'.

[frightlever]

Axis of Evil - Iran, Iraq and North Korea. Iran has nuclear power stations and is probably working on a bomb. North Korea has Nuclear power and already has the bomb. Iraq had neither but was thought to be working on the bomb so they drew the short straw.

China is the biggest dictatorship in the world and is solely responsible for something like 75% of all capital punishment worldwide. They have the bomb and are a preferred trading partner of the US and a member of the WTO. Nice.

Pakistan historically was a base of operations for the Taleban and other radical Islamic groups. They have the bomb and have become a "friend of America" in the war against terrorism. Or specifically their dictator leader has become a friend of America and the majority of the rest of the population aren't so sure, which is not to say they're actively anti-American.

The US is probably incapable of actually conducting a war against an enemy which is even remotely as capable as them because casualties on the scale of Iraqi losses would be totally unacceptable to the American public (and rightly, IMO.) which is what you would get if they clashed with even a semi-modern large army like Korea's or China's or even France's... ;-)