Vanheim Musings

Spacepain · #1 May 1st, 2006, 04:15 PM

First off, much thanks to all the folks who set me on a correct path with blooded marignon. I demonstrated to my mates really quick how awesome blood magic is. And they were pretty surprised when 300+ devils & some veyr nice Arch Demons/Demon Lords started romping around in their country.

However, now, I\\\'ve begun musing on the Vanheim. Of course, I\\\'m still playing within the very annoying unpatched and no CB mod constraints.

I was reading an old thread that essentially proclaimed Vans and mini SC human commanders as the second coming.... Without CB and pre-patch Vans cost 70 gold, so are they still worth pursuing in bulk for an army?

Also, the human commander mini SC topic was only lightly touched on. Myself being a noob, would anybody point out what things I\\\'d plop on them early game to make them SCs? I\\\'ve experimented with various items, but everything is rather \\"eh.\\" I feel like there is some vital principal behind building SCs I\\\'m missing.

Finally, Pretender wise (and this ties in with the bulk Vans strategy), since I\\\'m playing pre-patch I\\\'m thinking a Vampire Queen SC is in order (unless the super blessed Vans is a smart route to go, even pre-patch). My current VQ has 2A/2W/1D/2B. Quickness and Mirror Image kick off the game. Is there anyway for me to refine this?

Thanks for input!

Ironhawk · #2 May 1st, 2006, 04:33 PM

Didnt read this human commander SC thread but I'm not sure what they were driving at. I've tried a couple of times to use humans as SCs and have always failed. Thier problem is tha they just dont have the base hitpoints to survive an unlucky round. Some prophetized humans can get OK - Lord Wardens, Warlords, maybe some cavalry. But they dont really stand up to the regular thug chasis.

As for Vans: yes they are most certainly useful in bulk. The trick is just to give them a really good bless. F9/W9 is considered the standard, I believe. When combined with the existing speed of the Vans and thier innate mirror image it makes them incredibly powerful.

The only pretender that I think reasonably support F9/W9 is the Moloch?

NTJedi · #3 May 1st, 2006, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Spacepain said:
First off, much thanks to all the folks who set me on a correct path with blooded marignon. I demonstrated to my mates really quick how awesome blood magic is. And they were pretty surprised when 300+ devils & some veyr nice Arch Demons/Demon Lords started romping around in their country.

However, now, I\\\'ve begun musing on the Vanheim. Of course, I\\\'m still playing within the very annoying unpatched and no CB mod constraints.

Yes devils and demons are some of the most powerful units in the game. I'm surprised none of them would be interested installing the official patch since that does fix game crashes/errors, adds some balance and adds some new content.

Quote:

Spacepain said:
I was reading an old thread that essentially proclaimed Vans and mini SC human commanders as the second coming.... Without CB and pre-patch Vans cost 70 gold, so are they still worth pursuing in bulk for an army?

Also, the human commander mini SC topic was only lightly touched on. Myself being a noob, would anybody point out what things I\\\'d plop on them early game to make them SCs? I\\\'ve experimented with various items, but everything is rather \\"eh.\\" I feel like there is some vital principal behind building SCs I\\\'m missing.

Finally, Pretender wise (and this ties in with the bulk Vans strategy), since I\\\'m playing pre-patch I\\\'m thinking a Vampire Queen SC is in order (unless the super blessed Vans is a smart route to go, even pre-patch). My current VQ has 2A/2W/1D/2B. Quickness and Mirror Image kick off the game. Is there anyway for me to refine this?

Thanks for input!

We need more information... what size map? how many opponents ? what nations are being played by your opponents ? what type of diplomacy if any exist within the game ? do one or more of your opponents lean towards a specific strategy ?

Agrajag · #4 May 1st, 2006, 05:13 PM

My advice to you, spacepain, is to come to this forum for advice before every game with your mates, so that we can enlighten you in the ways of exploiting cheesy tactics that exist only in unpatched-unmodded-Dominions, so after each ***-kicking be sure to explain to your mates how you would not have been kicking their asses had they installed the latest official patch and CB mod

Other than that, the most obvious tip I can give you has been mentioned already - F9W9 blessing on vans. With their high innate defence and the defence bonus from W9 they become almost untouchable and F9 makes sure they can pack enough of a punch to take down any common unit.
But even so, I'd say that in the end game, the vans pale in comparison to SCs, mage squads and summons, so you'll probably have to go for somewhat of a "rush" tactic to capitalize on their early strength. (though the wealth that the early rush will provide you should definitely make up for that. Just be careful not to get ganged up on!)

Endoperez · #5 May 1st, 2006, 08:04 PM

If you want to try the "human" thug route, you can always use Vanir commanders. Blessing, inherent bonuses, few magical items... Air also has some buffs, although I don't think Mistform helps against magic, and I'm not sure about Mirror Image when they already have Glamour.

Spacepain · #6 May 1st, 2006, 09:34 PM

"My advice to you, spacepain, is to come to this forum for advice before every game with your mates, so that we can enlighten you in the ways of exploiting cheesy tactics that exist only in unpatched-unmodded-Dominions, so after each ***-kicking be sure to explain to your mates how you would not have been kicking their asses had they installed the latest official patch and CB mod"

Haha, thanks for the help. They'd prolly just stop playing dominions 2 before patching, though, as it takes far less energy to do.
Questions put here are done in retrospect of my matches with friends. Matches with friends are spontaneous all-nite 100-200 turn blitzes. There isn't any really any time to prepare specific strategies. Me thinks, I'll just leech off the collective brilliance of you folk till I'm a compedium of Dominions 2 information that's bursting at the seams.

"Other than that, the most obvious tip I can give you has been mentioned already - F9W9 blessing on vans. With their high innate defence and the defence bonus from W9 they become almost untouchable and F9 makes sure they can pack enough of a punch to take down any common unit."

Thank you, for confirming they're still a completely legitamately useful unit. The forum I read had them priced at 35 gold apiece. In (my version) the game has them at 70 gold, which made me cringe at first. I've played with them a little bit now, and they do actually seem to be pretty flipping sweet early game.

quantum_mechani · #7 May 1st, 2006, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Spacepain said:
100-200 turn blitzes.

Heh, playing that many turns in a one sitting blitz... that's just insane. I have played all day blitzes as far as maybe turn 50, and that's getting toward 1-hour turns or more. In fact, I am not sure I have ever heard of a multiplayer game of any kind played by vetrans that gets to turn 100 without it being basicly decided.

Cainehill · #8 May 2nd, 2006, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Spacepain said:
I was reading an old thread that essentially proclaimed Vans and mini SC human commanders as the second coming.... Without CB and pre-patch Vans cost 70 gold, so are they still worth pursuing in bulk for an army?

Also, the human commander mini SC topic was only lightly touched on. Myself being a noob, would anybody point out what things I\\\'d plop on them early game to make them SCs? I\\\'ve experimented with various items, but everything is rather \\"eh.\\" I feel like there is some vital principal behind building SCs I\\\'m missing.

Hmm. I think I'm one of the main human pretender (if that's what you mean) as SC players, falling a distant second or third to the famous and infamous Norfleet. Both of us had taken human pretenders in human (or human and immobile only) games, and risen to the top of the Hall of Fame, under various patches and incarnations of the Balance mods (which you _really_ should try to get your friends to use - it's brain dead simple).

You either get your pretender setup as incredible artillery (possibly the easier option unmodded / unpatched) or as a go-it-herself bad *** devourer of armies. Both have many potential paths, artillery more so than others....

I'm not sure what Norfleet used, but am fairly certain it wasn't anything like what I did - he went more for artillery.

Frankly - I can't give too many details, because it's been over a year since the ... MP community hasn't used the CB (conceptual balance) mods. But one of my tests involved trying a freaklord (generally considered one of the worst pretenders) without the CB mod. Wasn't nearly as potent for a variety of reasons - but I did find I was capable of taking out 1/2 the independent provinces (with indies 6-7) after 3 or 4 turns research. Easier if I had a nation that either had etherealness or BoW as a national spell.

Part of that was "Trample" - but BoW and FS also let you kill all indies that get close to you, as long as you have good enough defenses (regen, ethereal, luck, mistform, mirror image, armor or defense, etc) to survive them swinging at you.

But seriously - get your friends to patch, to use at least an ... old Conceptual Balance mod (the pretender version (modding only pretenders) has had essentially 0 complaints in a year and a half or more). Without at least the CB pretender mod - only 4 or 6 (counting nation specific pretenders) have a chance against players of equal skill, barring huge anomalies in luck (finding the A2E2 mage citadel, etc).

It's easy enough - and if your friends are local, you could load the mod on their computer, and it's automatically loaded / used if the host game has it set. Presuming that'd be you hosting, since your friends don't sound technical enough to do so.

Spacepain · #9 May 2nd, 2006, 11:22 AM

\"It\'s easy enough - and if your friends are local, you could load the mod on their computer, and it\'s automatically loaded / used if the host game has it set. Presuming that\'d be you hosting, since your friends don\'t sound technical enough to do so.\"

I do host the games, infact. So, inorder to utilize the CB mod, I simply need to enable it on my own computer? None of the clients also need the CB mod? I\'ll just start hosting with it then. I was under the impression they\'d also need the mod in order to play on a modded server.

Morkilus · #10 May 2nd, 2006, 12:28 PM

Uh, they need the mod ESPECIALLY on pretender mods when they make their god. I fail to see why anybody wouldn't use community-created mods unless they were both ultra-paranoid and ultra-clueless about their own computer. Send it to them personally if they are sqeamish, with specific instructions on where to unzip the file. Everything else is menu-driven in the game itself.