OT: War Bill, write your congress......

[disabled]

I do think Alexander the Great has succcess on his plow to India (that ended in pakistan).


Either way, we should remove all threats to this nation & others and apply the marshall plan. We screwed up big time during the cold war when we dropped the plan. Most of the dictators in power right now are because of the US. Often the US will help a country, but the faction we help would want to turn socialist for a while to rebuild thier cities, then we turn around and install a dictator that hates us.

We need to get the Marshall Plan back into effect. The US can foot the bill for building up countries plus think of the jobs and work it would create in the economy.


The only true weapon against War and Terror is Building and Education

------------------
HADRIAN T. AVENTINE
[email protected]
Administrator | SpaceEmpires.org

[dmm]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hadrian Aventine:
The only true weapon against War and Terror is Building and Education

---

Total destruction of any nation that dares oppose us in anything would also work quite well. Afghanistan has already had 4 years of drought. Famine and disease are both time-honored weapons of mass destruction. Close all borders, destroy all access roads, no one and nothing goes in or out. Burn the crops, bomb the wells, shoot the cattle, then sit back and wait. A year from now, the territory can be divided among the surrounding countries and repopulated. No nukes necessary. Draconian? Yes, but we'd only have to do this once.

As you can see from my Last few Posts, I am, like many Americans, somewhat schizophrenic right now. The terrorists had better hope that they haven't pushed us over the edge.

[Baron Munchausen]

The problem with this screaming for vengeance is that the actions proposed will result in terrible suffering for millions of people who had nothing to do with the act being avenged. I make no excuses for terrorists. The people actually responsible for the destruction of the WTC should die. But the few hundred people actually responsible, or few thousand at most, are scattered all over the world in small, hidden Groups. Usama Bin Laden is only the visible tip of a very large underground network. Even if we get him there will still be an entire organization out there capable and quite willing to carry out more of the same actions. This is not a task that needs bombs and missiles, but intense investigation and law-enforcement work. If you find a nasty weed in your lawn, do you napalm the whole lawn? Or dig the d*mn weed out? The napalm will kill the grass, but the weed has deeper roots and will probably be the first thing that grows back.

Careful, intelligent use of military force to get compliance from states who are either in secret cooperation with the terrorists or just not strong enough to resist them alone will probably be necessary. But even then we don't have to destroy the civilian population. I hope the current chest-beating by the US is just part of a game of 'good cop/bad cop' but with our past history I guess we can't know. There has been a noticable return of reason in the mass media these Last few days. More and more programs I've listened to on the radio point out that if we just drop thousands of bombs on Afghanistan it will only recruit more terrorists. Others who still watch TV will have to report on what is happening there. I hope this rationality is also returning to the minds of our government and military officials.

[geoschmo]

I think the US governments position is clear that they want to limit the use of force to that which is necessary to eliminate the terrorist organizations. Note the effort in the Last couple days to downplay a possible Iraqi connection to the terrorist plot. They are trying hard to keep this limited to the actual point at hand, and not allow it to become larger. Whether they will be successful or not remains to be seen.

I think it is obvious, despite the "Get Terrorism everywhere" rhetoric, that Bin Laden is the target. The tough stance towards the government of Afghanistan is expected considering they have protected Bin Laden for so long. We've been wanting to "talk" to the Taleban for years about him, and now when they see their guest has put them at risk, they are willing to talk.

I think the extent of damage to the Afghan military and civilians will be in whatever proportion that they allow themselves to be placed to closely too him.

Calling this a war is basically a way of telling the government of Afghanistan that we are not going to stop at their border and wait for them to turn him over. We will no doubt be putting men on the ground in their country and flying our planes over their airspace, actions that would be considered acts of war. Well, we are saying, this is a war, so we are released of those constraints.

But the objective of this war isn't to take their territory, so it won't be necessary to bomb far and wide, and occupy the country with hundreds of thousands of soldiers.

At least I hope that is what we are doing. Anything more could have serious repercussions. Even keeping to this limited tack is going to take a lot of skill. We don't have much room for error.

Geoschmo

[capnq]

quote:

---

There has been a noticable return of reason in the mass media these Last few days.

---

How is that even possible? I can't recall the mass media ever demonstrating any sense of reason about anything. It thrives on hype and hysteria.

------------------
Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

[arthurtuxedo]

Had a long response all ready to go, then the server crashed, and I didn't have the foresight to copy it to the clipboard before attempting to post. Ah well, here's the abridged Version.

Saxon - Sorry for being belligerent. You didn't deserve that. However, I think the point itself was valid. By helping out the nations of the perpetrators of the attack, are you not rewarding them and giving them something they want? Besides, the comparison with Germany becoming our friends doesn't really work. The situations are completely different. Germany was a country with millions of people, comprising the entire political spectrum in views, who had just lost a war. Their country was bombed out, devastated. The terrorists, on the other hand, are a small group of fundamentalist psychopaths who just won the greatest victory of any terrorist organization in recorded history.

dmm - That's the kind of blood-soaked solution we should be trying to avoid. Why should civilians who just happened to be of the same religion and similar nationalities of the terrorists have to pay the ultimate price for the actions of extremists?

[dmm]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gritsucker:
dmm - That's the kind of blood-soaked solution we should be trying to avoid. Why should civilians who just happened to be of the same religion and similar nationalities of the terrorists have to pay the ultimate price for the actions of extremists?

---

Well, I won't try to defend it on moral grounds, since it is hideous. I told you it was a "schizo" response.
However, let me ask you: If a Western (US/Europe/Can/Aus/etc.) government were trying to shelter a "freedom fighter" after he had just killed 5000 civilians in another country, what would be the response from their population? I think we all know the answer.
If the Afghan people do not force their government to hand over bin Laden's entire organization, then they are NOT innocent bystanders. At that point, they will have joined the war against the US. Aiding and abetting a felon is itself a felony.
Telling the police that you will kill anyone coming into your house to search for a criminal, and that you will kill your neighbors if they try to help, makes you a criminal yourself and a legitimate target for police snipers -- especially if you have been harboring said criminal for years and know that he is in your basement right now.

[PsychoTechFreak]

quote:

---

Originally posted by dmm:

If the Afghan people do not force their government to hand over bin Laden's entire organization, then they are NOT innocent bystanders.

---

What do you know about the afghan people ? I think we (as western civilization) cannot imagine how it is to be born into a totalitarian regime of religious fanatics. If you open just your mouth to say something in offense, you have to reckon with stoning. The only way to survive the firestorm of the whole world's rage seems to be the flight, but this is impossible because the borders are closed now.

I live about 50 miles away from Hamburg, where 3 of the "sleepers" have come from. Estimations are that about 100 more of the sleepers are still in Germany. Why do not napalm Germany to get rid of the 100 living bombs ? By the way you could balance some old accounts with us.

I pray for the innocent victims, I pray for peace, I pray for the thousands of innocent lives that will certainly be lost in the war that is near at hand, after that we will be two steps back (and I am sure not one step forward).

[Baron Munchausen]

quote:

---

Originally posted by capnq:

There has been a noticable return of reason in the mass media these Last few days.

---

How is that even possible? I can't recall the mass media ever demonstrating any sense of reason about anything. It thrives on hype and hysteria.

Heh... everything is relative, Capnq. The media has resumed a level of dicsourse more rational than it had during the first week or so after the attack. But then, as I said, I don't watch TV anymore. For me it's NPR and websites. Once in a while I'll watch a cable channel like SciFi or Discovery/TLC but that's it.

[Dracus]

here is what the pakistan leader said translated to engish:


President General Pervez Musharraf addressed the nation at 20:30 PST (11:30
EST).

Asalam-o- Alaikum

I am here to talk about the episode of terrorism that we have all
witnessed in New York which involved 45 countries and people of all ages
were killed. These were capable Pakistanis
and I would like to convey my deep sympathy to their family
members.

America has 3 targets

Osama Bin Laden (Al-Quaida Movement)

Taliban

International terrorism


Now I shall share with you the kind of support that they expect
from us.

1.Intelligence - Information exchange

2.Use of Air Space

3.logistic Support


No operations plans are ready or available at the moment.

Their target from the beginning has been Osama bin Laden, and his
movement. Their second target is the Talibaan. This has been their demand
for many years - to bring Osama to trial.
Now they have also announced a war against terrorism.

We do not have any details from the U.S of the exact nature of the
support from us. But we do know that they have the support of the UN
Security Council. The UN resolution specifies
punishment for those committing terrorism. This has been supported
by all the Islamic countries.

We in Pakistan are facing a very critical situation. Perhaps as
critical as the events in 1971. If we make the wrong decisions our vital
interests will be harmed.

I have discussed all this with my corps commanders, politicians and
prominent Pakistanis. Tomorrow I am meeting the tribal chiefs. I have to say
that opinions are divided, but the vast
majority supports us. I would say that about 15% are tending
towards emotional reactions.

Lets look at our neighbors. They have promised US all cooperation.
They want to isolate us, get us declared a terrorist state.

They have met in Dushanbe with some other countries and plan to try
and install anti Pakistani government in Afghanistan. So our neighbor is
busy trying to harm us. If you see their
television they are busy with propaganda against us.

I want to tell them to 'lay off'. Our forces are on full alert and
ready for a do or die mission.

In this situation if we make the wrong decisions it can be very bad
for us. Our critical concerns are our sovereignty, second our economy, third
our strategic assets (nuclear and missiles),
and forth our Kashmir cause. All four will be harmed if we make the
wrong decision. When we make these decisions they must be according to
Islam.

Its not a question of bravery or cowardice. But bravery without
thinking is stupidity. Allah has said that he who has 'hikmat' has a huge
blessing. We have to save our interests. Pakistan
comes first, everything else is secondary.

Some 'ulema' are trying to react on pure emotions. I want to remind
them of Islam's early history. The moved from Mecca to Medina (hijrat). Was
this (God forbid) cowardice? This
was wisdom to save Islam.

Then when the Jews saw that Islam was getting stronger they started
to conspire against the muslims. When the Prophet (PBUH) saw this happening
he signed a no war pact with his
enemies in Mecca. I want to remind you of that pact. At the end of
the pact, where his signature was required, the Meccans demanded that he
cannot sign it as "Prophet Mohammed".
The Prophet (PBUH) agreed.

The Prophet explained later that its best for Islam, and it's the
right thing to do. And time proved him right. Six months later there was a
war with the Jews and the Meccans did not
support the Jews and the Muslim forces won. And some time after
that Mecca also fell to Islamic mujahideen.

Let me say that I am concerned about Afghanistan and the Talibaan.
I have tried to convince world leaders not to impose sanctions on them in
the past. I have tried my best, but sadly
without much success.

In the present situation we have been trying to convince the
Talibaan to be wise. We have also asked the US for evidence about Osama bin
Laden. Also how do we best serve
Afghanistan's interests? By going against the world community or by
working with the international community. I am sure you will agree with me
that we can only do the later.

I also know that there are people who are using this to promote
their personal agendas. At this time, we have to be make sure that our
enemies do not succeed in their designs to harm
us. Pakistan is regarded as a fort of Islam. If this fort is
damaged, islam will be damaged.

I ask you to trust me, like you trusted me when I went to Agra.

May Allah guide and protect us.

Pakistan Zindabad