SPAA or SPAG ?

[Arralen]

The game engine still likes to buy tons of SPAA and use them as SPAGs .. .

Due to overrated armor and survivability on most SPAAs with some success, I must say.
As long as a M53/59 SPAA (6-wheeled lightly armored APC with 2x30mm AAgun) can take 155mm Offboard Arty hits or a burst of 20mm AP from 300m, there's really few reason to leave them behind.

I have seen this behaviour since the very first Steel Panthers, but it still annoys me to no end !

Is there any posibility to make the AI not move SPAA forward ?

[Mobhack]

Arralen said:
The game engine still likes to buy tons of SPAA and use them as SPAGs .. .

Due to overrated armor and survivability on most SPAAs with some success, I must say.
As long as a M53/59 SPAA (6-wheeled lightly armored APC with 2x30mm AAgun) can take 155mm Offboard Arty hits or a burst of 20mm AP from 300m, there's really few reason to leave them behind.

I have seen this behaviour since the very first Steel Panthers, but it still annoys me to no end !

Is there any posibility to make the AI not move SPAA forward ?

The game is designed in the AI code to move SPAA forwards with the troops, to give the forward troops AA cover.

The AI is designed to not let them get too close, but in the end game it will use them (and SP-ATGM and other classes that normally hang back) to close and take objecctives, usually since there will likely be very few AI actual tanks and APC running by that point! .

Cheers
Andy

[FJ_MD]

I usually move SPAA in front line to provide my tanks AA protection, and also on their own to do the mopping up of infantry, beware the ATGM infantry that will surely take out them with no problem.

[Arralen]

Mobhack said:
The game is designed in the AI code to move SPAA forwards with the troops, to give the forward troops AA cover.

Does covering other SPAAs count?

The AI is designed to not let them get too close, but in the end game it will use them

hmmmhhmmm.. that might be it. It where generally short battles, around 15 turns - is "end game" a %tage of total turns or a fixed number?
If it considers "8 turns before end" endgame, that would result in some strange behaviour in battles only 14 turns long

[Marek_Tucan]

hmmmhhmmm.. that might be it. It where generally short battles, around 15 turns - is "end game" a %tage of total turns or a fixed number?
If it considers "8 turns before end" endgame, that would result in some strange behaviour in battles only 14 turns long

I think the term "end game" refers rather to a situation where the AI's tanks and APC's are burning all across the map

@resistance to 155mm ans small guns... Not sure about it, my experiences are that it might not be neccessarily destroyed, but usually atleast some members are killed and vehicle damaged.

[BigJim]

LOL like ALL Grigsby games they are usally usless to play vs the AI (his cheats are the most despicable since the advent of wargaming) I could list dozen's but why bother, as a beer and pretzels game it's OK but bears NO resemblance to a real life situation.

[DRG]

BigJim said:
LOL like ALL Grigsby games they are usally usless to play vs the AI (his cheats are the most despicable since the advent of wargaming) I could list dozen's but why bother, as a beer and pretzels game it's OK but bears NO resemblance to a real life situation.

Go ahead and list what you think is still there becasue we've spent the last few years removing anything we consider a cheat and are quite curious to find out what you consider has been left in.



Don

[BigJim]

Hmmm well lets see how about borg spotting with arty?? AI arty will hit with at least 30% accuracy with no LOS at all, and the AI will have either air or arty on EVERY turn (unless you turn a BUNCH of stuff off). "to hit table" for the AI is uncanny, they can fire small arms from 400 meters and obtain kills on entrenched infantry not to mention that they are ALWAYS vet or better in rating vs the Human who will be regular at best (unless playing a third or fourth game of a campagne). AI enjoys unlimited "buy" points and buys units after you have chosen so as to offset any advantage you might have gotten with specialized troop/equipment. The biggest in my opinion is the AI's ability to fire round after round in front of NUMEROUS human troops and remain UNSPOTTED, not to mention the cute little LOS game of "I can see you but you can't see me" where the AI can fire on you but you cannot return fire EVEN with the targeted unit who IS NOT suppressed. The AI will assess "key" assets and they will be hit by planes/arty on the FIRST turn even tho they are "unspotted". How about units "popping up" unseen while crossing "open ground" in front of your massed scouts and infantry??? I am sure I can find others but there is a starter. Now mind you NONE of this occurs in a 2 player game so as a 2 player it is fine.

[Mobhack]

BigJim said:
Hmmm well lets see how about borg spotting with arty?? AI arty will hit with at least 30% accuracy with no LOS at all, and the AI will have either air or arty on EVERY turn (unless you turn a BUNCH of stuff off). "to hit table" for the AI is uncanny, they can fire small arms from 400 meters and obtain kills on entrenched infantry not to mention that they are ALWAYS vet or better in rating vs the Human who will be regular at best (unless playing a third or fourth game of a campagne). AI enjoys unlimited "buy" points and buys units after you have chosen so as to offset any advantage you might have gotten with specialized troop/equipment. The biggest in my opinion is the AI's ability to fire round after round in front of NUMEROUS human troops and remain UNSPOTTED, not to mention the cute little LOS game of "I can see you but you can't see me" where the AI can fire on you but you cannot return fire EVEN with the targeted unit who IS NOT suppressed. The AI will assess "key" assets and they will be hit by planes/arty on the FIRST turn even tho they are "unspotted". How about units "popping up" unseen while crossing "open ground" in front of your massed scouts and infantry??? I am sure I can find others but there is a starter. Now mind you NONE of this occurs in a 2 player game so as a 2 player it is fine.

Hmm - sounds like you are referring to the original SP2 or SP3 game of long ago.

Please provide some save game examples where this behaviour can be shown to happen. After all, if there is buit-in "AI cheating" then this will be regular and repeatable, hence easily captured evidence.

As Don says - we have spent time removing the few AI cheats thet were there in the original SSI game. The AI uses the same delay procedures as the human player, and gets no "free hints" as to where the human player is. That is all there was, and it WAS frustrating in SP2 (not our game) to take a hill and get "instant arty" on your troops.

The game uses the same code to spot and hit, there is no "AI bonus". It does not get any troop quality bonus - it uses the same troop quality as the human would if he bought that army at that date.

The AI uses my routines to plot arty now - there are no cheats or bonuses. It plans bombardments on likely areas, near roads and road junctions, and near objective hexes if it is plotting "blind". it uses the same delay code (but is intelligent enough to use an artillery observer if present, or the HQ, for shorter delays).

In this latest issue the AI has been given a "clue" about events that your opponent (if human) would have noted from the PBEM playback. each one of itself is not a 100% guarantee of arty being plotted thereabouts, but the more you do inthe same area, the more likely that AI will target that zone, just a s ahuman player would. previously, the AI would only target your units if they were still detected in its turn, otherwise it would use the random plot procedures.

Now - it will take an "interest" in the following events, reported onthe screen to a human opponent: rooster trail smoke generation, engineer mine clearance messages, Z-key area fire events, Direct fire events, missile launch (SAM or ATGM) events, mine trips, smoke X-key events and a few others I probably have forgotten.

In the past - you could play the "hill dance" of popping up from behind a hill, firing, and ensuring you ended behind the hill to avoid enemy fire in his turn ANd any plotting of AI arty as the trops would be hidden in its turn, so not plotted on. Now - the more shots you fire from a particular area, the more chance of some incoming your way.

Oh - forgot the tripping of an objective hex, that one is a relatively high AI interest item now. A human opponent would note the flag change, and now the AI does as well.

Please demonstrate with hard evidence anything that backs up your assertions, and I'll gladly look into it.

Cheers
Andy

[BigJim]

Ok will try and capture some video for ya, I just played a generated campagne where in the last game I was the defender, I had "earned" enough points to have about 15 M1A1's, the enemy assaulted with no less than 150 vehicles most of which were tanks over 50 were main battle tanks, along with "hords" of infantry and arty and aerial attacks on EVERY turn, which by the way targeted my stinger assets on the first turn BEFORE they had fired. The AI's "buy" points had to be HUGE to afford all the assets thrown my way

I also note that you didnot address my main complaint about LOS advantage???