modders and shipset creators - please read

[dogscoff]

[quote]Originally posted by Andr�s Lescano:
some AI may not be prepared to use some of the new sizes

Fair enough, but thaa's not my problem. I'm just worried about the images, not the AI. Many mods do alter vehiclesizes.txt, and I'm just catering for them.

[quote]Originally posted by Andr�s Lescano:

There is a third alternative that is copying and renaming one of the default sizes to make the new size picture ... too much work ... a waste of hardrive space ... will make the "more vehicle sizes" mod file unnecessarily big.


Well, the work would only have to be done once, by the modder. As for the file size - I can't disagree, but your average HD won't notice an extra 5 or even 15 meg. The download would be a pain but it would only be a one off- and remember that zipping a .bmp file will take 70 or 80% off of it's size. Someone could even create a batch file to generate all the duplicate images locally on the user's machine.

As long as there are default images though it doesn't really matter if each race has the extra images or not. Any mod which includes default images might as well point to the race directory first, just in case a special image is available.

[quote]Originally posted by Andr�s Lescano:

BTW, some time ago there was a post in se4@yahooGroups with a suggested list of vehiclesizes and Kt of each.

Sounds interesting. Thanks.

[quote]Originally posted by Andr�s Lescano:

I have a few new sizes in my starwars mod.
* Infantry: ... And these are very specific of the starwars mod

OK, well if any other modders want to use infantry, I'll try to get them to use the same filenames as you, so any shipsets which include the picture will be compatible with a larger number of mods.

[quote]Originally posted by Andr�s Lescano:

* TIE Fighter, TIE Bomber and TIE Advanced are fighters that can only have 2 engines but have combat movement bonus and are fast in battle, these sizes use fighter pics.

OK, I'll look at the vehiclesizes.txt of your mod. Yours isn't the only mod to use extra fighter sizes, so there might be a clash there already.

[quote]Originally posted by Andr�s Lescano:

* Small, Medium and Large Death Star may be similar to battlemoons, I have use 3 different custom pics in the default race dir.

OK, another clash. I'd like to agree a common filename for battlemoon / death star images so that the Star Wars and P&N mods could share images.

Thanks for all the data, anyway. I will update the table to include *all* the entries in *all* the vehiclesizes.txt files mentioned so far. It might be several days until I can get it uploaded so bear with me.

I'll also include links to each mod's homepage, unless I receive objections.

Furthermore, with the permission of the authors I'd like to create a central "bank" of default vehicle images for non-standard ships and units.

Thanks for your help everyone, keep them coming in. I'd like some confirmation from TDM that the standard vehilesizes.txt isn't altered in their mod - That would be in keeping with your "non- interference" policy wouldn't it?

What about all those other mods? Haven't heard from Spoogy in a while, and I seem to recall a zippy mod? There must be more besides. C'mon people, it's not often I get this motivatd...

------------------
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"I think so Brain but, if you replace the P with an O, my name would be Oinky, wouldn't it?"

[dogscoff]

Suicide_Junkie

Still looking through your mod... there are some more sizes you didn't mention:

Resource Base
Resource Ship
Massive fighter
Drop Pod

These will all be added into the table, since some people might want to create custom images for these. For example, your resource base and resource ship could use images designed for Devnullmod's mining base and prospector ships. There are also at least 2 other mods with extra fighter sizes.

If I can persuade you all to use the same filename for these ships in your mods, each mod would benefit from extra images designed for the others. You see?

I don't think I've been explaining this concept very well from the start. Say I create a shipset with a battlemoon pic for the P&N mod. I would name it race_battlemoon_portrait.bmp and it would work fine. However, if someone wants to use my race in Andres' Star Wars Mod, they'll want to use the battlemoon as a Death Star. Unfortunately, the Star Wars mod might require the filename "race_DeathStar_portrait.bmp" - what then?

That's what my webpage is for. If modders can agree on some standard filenames, shipset creators will be encouraged to put in those extra images and modders will be able to produce far prettier mods.

Of course, you're going to say "But what about the races that don't have specialised image?"
Simple: Create additional default generic pictures by copying and renaming the generic pics. (Pretty much as you have with the battlemoon)

If you like you could also copy and rename pics for for all unsupported races in your mod, if you want them to look specific rather than generic.

Sorry if I'm starting to sound preachy, but I'm a man with a mission now...

I have already drawn a prospector for my viking set. Please take a look at Space Vikings!

------------------
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"I think so Brain but, if you replace the P with an O, my name would be Oinky, wouldn't it?"

[Suicide Junkie]

quote:

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Still looking through your mod... there are some more sizes you didn't mention:

Resource Base
Resource Ship
Massive fighter
Drop Pod

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I did mention the drop pod, but it was an edit, so you may have missed it.

P&N special shipsizes
-Resource Base
-Resource Ship
-Heavy Fighter
-Massive Fighter
-Drop Pod
-BattleMoon
The nomads get a bonus two levels in fighter tech, so they have two extra fighter sizes.

I did note that others were mentioning "infantry", and having a handweapons component.
IMO, there should be an infantry component, which you put in drop pods or landing craft of some sort.

quote:

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I don't think I've been explaining this concept very well from the start. Say I create a shipset with a battlemoon pic for the P&N mod. I would name it race_battlemoon_portrait.bmp and it would work fine. However, if someone wants to use my race in Andres' Star Wars Mod, they'll want to use the battlemoon as a Death Star. Unfortunately, the Star Wars mod might require the filename "race_DeathStar_portrait.bmp" - what then?

---

I suggest we forget about using the terminology of any one mod. Instead of calling the picture "battlemoon" or "deathstar", make it "Large base ship"
Terminology from classic SE4 is best;
How about this:
Use the closest term from SE4,
then add a prefix of "Small"/"Medium"/"Large"/"Heavy"/"Massive" to indicate size (from standard ship sizes plus weapon mount names)
I don't think that many mods would have more than 5 Versions of any one thing.

We would get "Remote Miner" for prospectors and resource ships,
"Large BaseShip","Heavy BaseShip","Massive BaseShip" for the DeathStar sizes.
Battlemoons could use "Massive BaseShip"

------------------
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[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 19 July 2001).]

[dogscoff]

- Drop pod : missed the edit, I'll go back for it.

- Heavy Fighter : Spotted it, thanks. I've got all the P&N sizes into the table now, maybe I'll get time to upload it tonight.

QUOTE:
I did note that others were mentioning "infantry", and having a handweapons component.
IMO, there should be an infantry component, which you put in drop pods or landing craft of some sort.
/QUOTE

Oh I see what you mean... Isn't that kind of what we have now, with the troop transport carrying the troop units? I like the idea of an infantry unit which can be armed with hand weapons - it would be very useful for primitive mods. (Design an infantry unit with the latest in "pointy stick" technology=-)

QUOTE:
I suggest we forget about using the terminology of any one mod .... "Small"/"Medium"/"Large"/"Heavy"/"Massive"
/QUOTE

This makes good sense for units, transports, carriers etc. I think we might need to include "tiny" on that list as well in case ppl decide to go smaller.

What about warships? Is a Corvette a small frigate or a large escort? There will need to be some exceptions to the rule. For example I think I prefer "infantry" to "tiny troop".

QUOTE:
"Large BaseShip","Heavy BaseShip","Massive BaseShip" for the DeathStar sizes.
Battlemoons could use "Massive BaseShip"
/QUOTE

okaaaay... So Devnull's super monitor would be a large baseship... yeah, that all makes sense. Good thinking. Any other modders in ageement with all this? Andres, what do you think?

[geoschmo]

quote:

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For example I think I prefer "infantry" to "tiny troop".

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I think they would perfer it as well.

"Sgt. Rock, 6th Army corp, 42nd Tiny Troop Division" just doesn't sound all that tough if you ask me.

Geo

[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 19 July 2001).]

[Suicide Junkie]

quote:

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Oh I see what you mean... Isn't that kind of what we have now, with the troop transport carrying the troop units? I like the idea of an infantry unit which can be armed with hand weapons - it would be very useful for primitive mods. (Design an infantry unit with the latest in "pointy stick" technology=-)

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By landing craft, I mean the little things that carry 12 guys and go down through the atmosphere to land on the beach... same idea as a drop pod (except reusable)
You'd have your 1kT Landing Craft vehicle, and put an "Ewok SpearThrowers" component in there, or a "Medieval Knights" component.

PS: And I do acknowledge the fact that some things will have to be exceptions, but we want to keep it as close as possible to avoid confusion.
------------------
The latest info onPirates & Nomads (forum thread).
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-<Download V1.6>-
-<Download compatible EMPs for P&N v1.6>-
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[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 19 July 2001).]

[Andr�s]

SJ I just realized what you mean. It�s more a question on how troops are launched than if smaller troops should be drop pods or the troopers themselves.
I believe you�re saying that troops are launched by the transport in space and have to land on the planet by their own means. So then it would be impossible for a single trooper unless it�s equipped with an extremely advanced space suit to land. A drop pod sounds better. What I don�t like is seeing pods in the ground combat window. Another question is how do troops are transferred again to the transport. Can they �jump� from the planet by themselves?
However it�s possible that troops aren�t literally �dropped� but reach the planet by other means. For example the transport can land on the planet and open the door to let troops walk away, some startrek-like beam, or invisible drop pods or shuttles. The same mean is probably also used for all other cargo transfers.
Then there would be no problem with infantry. Of course that 1 kt (1,000,000 kg) is completely out of scale for a single trooper, but the game just doesn�t allow to make a vehiclesize of 0.0001 kt or less. Imagine that each infantry represents a complete division + equipment.


On another note I like the idea of using more �neutral� names for new sizes. Do we agree to use LargeBaseShip, HeavyBaseShip, MassiveBaseShip as bitmap names for larger than baseship sizes? If so I�ll rename them (at least file names but not the name shown to players) next time I update my mod.
Oh and I believe that maximum allowed tonnage is 65535, more than 43 times larger than a baseship, so maybe we should consider the possibility of having more than 3 larger-than-baseship sizes.

Oh and the sizes I remembered from the email group (it used to be egroup but now it�s yahoogroup) were early drafts of Dave's Mod. Most of them are also in Devnullmod, but not all of them for example this smaller-than-escort Scout, so I though you�d like to take a look anyway.

quote:

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Tonnage
Scout 100*
Corvette 250*
Escort 150
Frigate 200
Destroyer 300
Light Cruiser 400
Cruiser 500
Battle Cruiser 600
Heavy Cruiser 750*
Battleship 800
Sub-Dreadnought 900*
Dreadnought 1000
Super-Dreadnought 1300*
Titan I don't really like the name for any of these three...Any better
ideas?
Mega-Titan also any better ideas for sizes? I don't like going above the
baseship size
Colossus for these
Baseship 1500
---
Courier (transport) 200*
Small Transport 300
Medium Transport 600
Large Transport 900
Mega Transport 1000
---
Escort Carrier 500*
Light Carrier 800
Medium Carrier 1000
Heavy Carrier 1200
Mega Carrier 1500*
---
Light Colony Ship Any special reason to have different sized colony ships?
Colony Ship
Heavy Colony Ship
Mega Colony Ship
---
Space Station 500
Battlestation 1500
Starbase 2500
Star Fortress 2000*
Doom Star 3000*
Ultra Station 4000* This should take FOREVER to build

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Small Fighter 15
Medium Fighter 20
Heavy Fighter 25

Light Bomber 30*
Medium Bomber 40*
Heavy Bomber 50*

For the bombers, I would probably do decreasing number of maximum engines,
so that the heavy bomber is SLOW

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Light Troop 10
Medium Troop 15
Heavy Troop 20
Hover Tank 35*
Heavy Tank 50*


Anything followed by an * is my ideas; otherwise, its official game stuff
from SE4

For graphics for new ships, I am terrible at bitmaps, so I doubt I could do
other graphics, especcially for new things like bombers and tanks, where it
would really be good, but I can easily do the data files, and will do so in
the next couple of days.

If anyone has any suggestions, send them my way

Dave

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[Baron Munchausen]

There's an unused ability in the abilities.txt file called 'drop troops'. Apparently there was supposed to be a special bay like for launching fighters, but for dropping troops. The sheer numbers of troops you have to drop to take a large or huge planet apparently made that impractical.

Personally, I'm still requesting a 'Robotech-style' combination troop/fighter vehicle. Imagine how cool to have a carrier that launches hundreds of dual-purpose vehicles. They attack the defending fleet and THEN take the planet without having to haul a bunch of troops in a seperate ship! This could be very powerful, of course. It ought to be a racial tech that costs some points. But it would be so much fun to have!

[out_law]

!I don't if you know this but you can give ship certain bulit advantaces, not just 40% change of hitting kind of thing - but other things like bulit in bridge, this could open the door to things like organic star ships and probe. Why dose'nt the drone work? I tried to added it but it would have any of it!

[AJC]

How about Monitor, Super Monitor

quote:

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Originally posted by Andr�s Lescano:

Super-Dreadnought 1300*
Titan I don't really like the name for any of these three...Any better
ideas?
Mega-Titan

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[/b][/quote]