modders and shipset creators - please read

[dogscoff]

OK, Last night I uploaded a major update to my space vikings shipset. My shipset will include images for non-standard ship sizes like corvette, heavy destroyer, prospector and battle moon.

These extra images *can* be implemented without hardcode changes if modders are prepared to support them, and this is the beginning of my campaign to make it happen.

Therefore I have started work on a reference table for shipset creators, which tracks all the different ship sizes used in the various mods.

This table will show what images are needed for compatibilty with which shipsets. It also gives useful comparative data which may help you decide how each ship should look: For example size, speed, bonuses etc.

Anyway, please look at the page on <A HREF="http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/vikingmoddata.htm">hull data</A> bearing the following in mind:

- it isn't finished yet. I have a *lot* more data to put in and I have to make it more readable.

- Shipset creators: Have I left anything out? What do you consider when designing each image?
Also I would be interested to know if you have ever released any non-standard ship images. I believe S-J has released a battlemoon pic but I haven't had a chance to look at it yet.

- modders: I have only included a few mods so far, and I may have mis-represented one of those. The standard and devnull data comes straight from the relevant vehiclesizes.txt files. I will do the same research for all the mods I cover, but you could save me some work by telling me how/ if your mod varies from the standard.

-file names: If modders do begin to support extra ship images, it would make sense to have a single standard for filenames. (ie it would be a pain if one shipset used heavydestroyer and another called it hdestroyer) I would like my website to be the central reference for this standard, and so I have allocated some arbitrary (but logical) file names. If you have any opinions or prior work on this subject, please post here.

I'll resurrect the space vikings thread, with a URL if you want to see what my additional images look like.

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"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"I think so Brain but, if you replace the P with an O, my name would be Oinky, wouldn't it?"

[Suicide Junkie]

quote:

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Also I would be interested to know if you have ever released any non-standard ship images. I believe S-J has released a battlemoon pic but I haven't had a chance to look at it yet.

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I've only added a single battlemoon pic (both mini and portrait) to the default race graphics.
All I did was copy one of the moon images from the pictures\stellar folder to the default AI folder, so its not very original artwork

I believe I just called it "mini_battlemoon", but since I'm at work, I can't confirm that as to caps & stuff.

If you can read this, I'm not home yet. Just download v2, and check: the battlemoon is the only picture in the zip.

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[dogscoff]

Thanks S_J. Have you created any mods other than P&N?

If I create a Viking battlemoon and encourage other shipset creators to do the same, do you think you will add support for race specific battlemoon pics in the mod? Or does it do that already? I could (and will) look at the files but it's easier just to ask=-)

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"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"I think so Brain but, if you replace the P with an O, my name would be Oinky, wouldn't it?"

[Suicide Junkie]

Oops, yeah. I've got a second new shipsize, the Drop Pod. It can only be used by races with organic and religious tech, and holds a super commando (with a DUC for an arm and organic body armor). I believe I just used a pic from one of the other troops, but now that I've mentioned it, I will change it to use another pic, the same way as the BattleMoon.
The BattleMoon pic is placed in the generic/default race folder, so any race that does not have a battlemoon pic will use the one I copied. (Large, smoothish vaccuum-rock planet with the mean looking crater on it)
Any race that includes their own battlemoon pic will use their personal one by default. Also, any race style that includes a battlemoon pic should be fully compatible with any other mod.

I've really only made one mod, but there are breaks along the way.
PiratesMod
Pirates&Nomads v1 (current v1.6)
Pirates&Nomads v2 (current v2.0)

P&Nv2 is different from P&Nv1; it drastically changes the propulsion system, and introduces the battlemoon, so it becomes a totally different play style. You have to balance between small ships with few abilities, or expensive, 40 engine Dreadnaughts.
Also, AIs for P&Nv2 require a textfile patch or they will not work properly; P&Nv1 AIs can work with only an altered .EMP file.

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Instructions about Pirates & Nomads (forum thread).
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[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 18 July 2001).]

[dogscoff]

Somone else has produced a race specific battlemoon pic? Damn, I wanted my shipset to be the first to offer non- standard ship images. Ah well.

OK, no probs. I'll get the default filname from your mod and that will be fine. I'm not sure how your propulsion systm will fit into my table though, since max. speed is the issue rather than number of engines. I take it each hull size still has a maximum speed limit.(not taking bonuses, solar sails etc into account)

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"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"I think so Brain but, if you replace the P with an O, my name would be Oinky, wouldn't it?"

[Suicide Junkie]

Oh!, the BattleMoon has a bunch of abilities built into the hull:
(amounts from memory)
-Supply storage (tens of thousands range)
-Cargo storage (800KT)
-Master Computer (can't be taken over by Allegiance Subverters and/or ComputerViruses)
-maybe more, but I can't remember them.

quote:

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Somone else has produced a race specific battlemoon pic? Damn, I wanted my shipset to be the first to offer non- standard ship images. Ah well.

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I don't remember who, but it was a really cool pic. It had a organic-metallic looking shell, with a bigass coremount gunport.

Oh, BTW, in case you needed to know, the CoreMount gives a 25x size, 50x damage to beam weapons, range boost of 4 or so, but suffers a 30% accuracy penalty. Everything else seems so wimpy compared to a 3,000 damage meson bLast or an 11K damage WMG

quote:

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OK, no probs. I'll get the default filname from your mod and that will be fine. I'm not sure how your propulsion systm will fit into my table though, since max. speed is the issue rather than number of engines. I take it each hull size still has a maximum speed limit.(not taking bonuses, solar sails etc into account)

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I'm afraid the propulsion system is even more distorted than you are assuming .
-There is NO bonus movement for ships. (higher tech engines provide more standard movement points)
-There is no max engine limit (it is 42, since more can cause range check errors)
-Solar sails provide standard movement only, but take up no fuel.
-You can make ships go any speed you want, but the optimum warship speed is around 5-7 movement giving 3 or 4 in combat. (from playtesting)
-Escorts go 1 MP per engine at beginning tech. Double the hull mass, halve the speed for the rest of the ships. CT engines give 1/3rd more movement, JP engines give 2/3rds more, Quantum engines give double movement. (thus, to go the same speed a 1500KT baseship needs 10 times the engines of a 150KT escort). Battlemoons go either 0 or 1MP (you need max CT engines just for 1MP, ion engines can't move it)
I believe that LCs have the highest potential movement:
With an MC3 (20KT) and 38 Quantum engines (380KT), you get 38*6/3(400kT/150kT) = 28.5 movement.
At that speed, you can only travel for exactly three turns before you run out of fuel (burning 6*38*28=6,400 supplies per turn), and you have no weapons or defenses, and your ship costs about 8,000 radioactives.
On quantum 1s, which are less fuel efficient, one turn of travel will leave you with insufficient supplies to return home.
So, all the common small ships will go about 7 speed in actual play. There will be the occasional Superfast scout, but they are "mostly harmless".
The small ships, with a 20KT MC, and the rest ion engines, will go:
ES: 12 MP @ 3 EPM
FG: 13.5 MP @ 4 EPM
DS: 14 MP @ 6 EPM
LC: 14.25 MP @ 8 EPM
The big ships, with max ion engines (400kT worth) will go:
CR: 500kT 12 MP @ 10 EPM
BC: 600kT 10 MP @ 12 EPM
BB: 800kT 7.5 MP @ 16 EPM
DN: 1000KT 6 MP @ 20 EPM
BS: 1500KT 4 MP @ 30 EPM
BM: 10,000KT 0 MP @ 150 EPM
With quantums, double that value, and make the BM go 1 MP.

At best, with An LC & maxed quantum engines, the ship will go across 2 systems in one turn, equivalent to about half the speed of light.
Don't know how much that helped, but that's how it works

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The latest info onPirates & Nomads (forum thread).
-<Download V2.0>-
-<Download V1.6>-
-<Download compatible EMPs for P&N v1.6>-
-<SJs latest AI Patcher>-
Visit My Homepage

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 18 July 2001).]

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 18 July 2001).]

[Puke]

had a thought when i read about high movement potential on LCs below. i thought, what good is that? interceptors are cool, but they need punch. and if it does not spend much space on armor or weapons, its going to be a throw away ship. its not like speed makes you harder to hit, although with some long range missiles you could do hit and run tactics.

and then i thought, man, it would be cool if a faster ship did more damage when ramming. but the game does not work that way. Then it hit me: Build in bonus ramming damage (cobalt kamakazi warhead thing) to each engine, doing more damage for bigger engines. same for solar sail, and same for afterburners. that will figure that you will hit at your max speed, and the faster you go the more damage you do. now, while F=MA, and this does not figure for M, you can let that ballance out by the higher damage resistance of a larger ship, or maybe building in damage potential to the hulls in the same way. then i guess it would be f=m+a which isnt quite the same, but probably as good as it could get.

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"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

[Suicide Junkie]

A most excellent idea!
(though there is a problem with your physics)
F=MA.
It looked like you were using F= force of the crash, M= mass of the ship, A= acceleration due to engines.
The engines aren't used during the crash; the acceleration is from the two hulls meeting.
If you knew the acceleration caused by the impact (eg. 1000 KM/s to zero in 0.1 seconds), then you'd know the force.

A more useful measure for damage in this case is probably kinetic energy. E=0.5 M V^2

A warhead damage of 10 or so per engine would not guarantee your own ship's destruction, but cost the enemy more hitpoints. Plus, in P&N v2, it would be damage = mass x Speed (Real Life: damage = mass x (speed ^2))
(SE4 classic: damage = speed)

Expect to see this in P&Nv2.1, along with more armor types & some minor changes.

PS: to create a hyperlink, use
[ url=www.shrapnelgames.com]ClickMe[/url]
without the leading space.

quote:

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REPAIRED LINK:
Anyway, please look at the page on hull data bearing the following in mind:

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------------------
The latest info onPirates & Nomads (forum thread).
-<Download V2.0>-
-<Download V1.6>-
-<Download compatible EMPs for P&N v1.6>-
-<SJs latest AI Patcher>-
Visit My Homepage

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 18 July 2001).]

[Andr�s]

quote:

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The BattleMoon pic is placed in the generic/default race folder, so any race that does not have a battlemoon pic will use the one I copied. (Large, smoothish vaccuum-rock planet with the mean looking crater on it)
Any race that includes their own battlemoon pic will use their personal one by default. Also, any race style that includes a battlemoon pic should be fully compatible with any other mod.

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That must be made a rule for any new vehicle size that uses a new picture. Even if you make a custom picture for every shipset and neutral players are not likely to use this size, the picture in the RaceGeneric dir is indispensable because it will be used by any new shipset you add.

quote:

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These extra images *can* be implemented without hardcode changes if modders are prepared to support them, and this is the beginning of my campaign to make it happen.

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The main problems with new sizes are first that some AI may not be prepared to use some of the new sizes (for example I had to add a new item in all designcreation files to make my infantry work) and will be in disadvantage, and second the lack of new pictures for shipsets not specifically prepared. That will force you to use only pics in the RaceGeneric dir or use the same pic of other shipsize. There is a third alternative that is copying and renaming one of the default sizes to make the new size picture (IIRC some people did this to make the baseship use a different picture from the starbase, if you look around you'll find some shipsets include a baseship picture), but of course that if you have many shipsets and many new sizes this would be too much work and having two identical files with different names in every directory looks like a waste of hardrive space, and will make the "more vehicle sizes" mod file unnecessarily big.

BTW, some time ago there was a post in se4@yahooGroups with a suggested list of vehiclesizes and Kt of each. I have erased it from my system, but will check history in yahoGroups web site to find it.

I have a few new sizes in my starwars mod.
* Infantry: Some players have asked for this size and I believe it will be a great addition to your chart. Note that it's useless without the specific custom components (Infantry Rifles). The custom pic in the default race dir comes from the boarding party comp with changed colors to match neutral race shipset. Also some of my shipsets have specific infantry pics.
And these are very specific of the starwars mod (only available for players with a specific racial advantage) and I'm not sure if suitable for more general mod.
* TIE Fighter, TIE Bomber and TIE Advanced are fighters that can only have 2 engines but have combat movement bonus and are fast in battle, these sizes use fighter pics.
* Small, Medium and Large Death Star may be similar to battlemoons, I have use 3 different custom pics in the default race dir.

Andr�s Lescano

The StarWars mod http://se4kdy.cyberwars.com/tech/sw-mod/

The main index of my site http://se4kdy.cyberwars.com/

[Atrocities]

Sounds good to me.

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"We've made too many compromises already, too many retreats! They invade our space and we fall back -- they assimilate entire worlds and we fall back! Not again! The line must be drawn here -- this far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done!" -- Captain Picard STNG
New Age Ship Yards