Mod Project, request from resume of ideas.

[deccan]

Cohen said:
Warlock Apprentice to 130 gold
Ant Salamander to 150 gold
Ant Dragon to 280 gold

I wish I had those prices in my Abysia game!

[Boron]

Graeme Dice said:

Far too cheap, considering that just about every other 2/1 mage in the game is 140 gold, even those that are capital only.

Well the Warlock Apprentice is capitol only too and it serves almost only the purpose of bloodhunting .

A seraph is a 2/1 mage and costs 100 gold . A pythium theurg is a 2/1/1 mage + holy 3 and 150 SACRED gold .
A Deep seer is a 3/2 mage and only 180 gold ...

Graeme Dice said:

This might be okay, but also means that you aren't paying anything for the fire resistance.

Again the theurg : He has the same price as Cohens new price for the Ant Salamander and is holy 3 + Sacred too .
The theurg isn't fire resistent but he has not 2 but 4 magic skills and way better overall flexibility , e.g. false horror spam , quickened lightning hurler , in a communioun he could use thunderstrike , orb ligthning , soul slay etc. as well .
So the theurg can adapt to the enemy and use astralmagic if the enemy is lightning resistent .
The anathmet salamander is doomed when he faces e.g. devils .

Graeme Dice said:

This is beyond ridiculous. The base price, assuming no cost for the basic stats of the unit should be 300 gold.

If you compare the Ant dragon to the Demonbred this is not ridicoulous . The demonbred has fire 2 as well but can fly .
The ant dragon has 3 fire + 4 holy in total so 7 paths while the demonbred has 2 fire 2 blood and 3 holy = 7 paths also . And the demonbred can fly as a bonus .
Only disadvantage : Capitol only .

Again : the Ant dragon is DOOMED when he faces fire immune opponents like devils , SCs ... .

Sacred Comparisons :
Harab Elder : AAAEDDHH and only 270 gold .
Crone : AANNN* , 230 gold .
etc. like Last of tuatha , vanheim .

The most striking comparision is though marignons Grand master :
F3S2*HHH for only 270 gold .
So are 3 more magic levels but 1 Holy less and being capitol only worth 10 costs difference in Cohens Mod and 90 in normal dominions ?

[Peter Ebbesen]

Cohen said:
Warlock Apprentice to 130 gold

130 gold for a 2/1 mage with 100% fire resistance and 50%-70% more hitpoints than the average mage. At 150 gold, I find them cheap.

Ant Salamander to 150 gold

Fire 2, Holy 3, 100% fire resistance, high MR, tougher than most priests... And you want to reduce them to 150 gold?

As for the 280 gold Fire 3 Holy 4 Dragon... Ye gawds. A Coral Queen is 230 gold, a Lizard King 280 gold, and they are H4 only. A High Inquisitor with less hitpoints, MR, and lacking fire resistance but with Fire 1 Holy 4 comes in at 210 gold, but then, Marignon is a theocracy.

Just which perceived shortcoming of the strong Abysian nation is it that you seek to remedy? They are already one of the best blood nations around if you want to go that way, with superior fireproof normal troops, excellent (though expensive) blessable troops, and access to both strong magic and priestly power. And you want to make them cheaper?

Rereading what I just wrote I realise that it may sound insulting, but honestly, I am just totally perplexed as Abysia as it is now seems to be an overachiever in all categories except magical diversity.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Boron said:

A seraph is a 2/1 mage and costs 100 gold . A pythium theurg is a 2/1/1 mage + holy 3 and 150 SACRED gold .
A Deep seer is a 3/2 mage and only 180 gold ...

Caelum is a magocracy, hence cheap mages. (Though low-def and fragile). Its troops are expensive and/or crappy.

Atlantis is the powerful aquatic nation. The deep seer is its most fragile troop and of limited utility in battle against its most likely threat, R'lyeh. Usually employed in the clam of pearls factory for life.

Pythium is led by the priest-mages, who are the most powerful in the world. They are also a bit fragile. They have decent though not spectacular troops.


And a warlock apprentice is a bloodhunter who will kick in your door in the middle of the night and confiscate your virgin daughter. Abysia is not set up to be the strongest priest nation or the strongest mage nation, nor is it the strongest troop nation... What is Abysia then?

Abysia is the nation that gains 120 extra design points because of heat 3, the ability to not have reduced supplies in death environments, where everybody including leaders have fire resistance and a heat aura, as well as about 50% more hitpoints than corresponding troops/leaders, with strong blessable troops (if you can afford them), excellent assassins, a flying sacred magic leader, good bloodhunters, decent magic, strong priests, and where everybody has decent to high morale, and a uniform high MR. What a lot of positives! Should we add to these positives "cheap mages and cheap priests" as well?

I don't think so.

How about comparing themes in entirity rather than merely a unit from theme A vs unit from theme B basis.

If you compare the Ant dragon to the Demonbred this is not ridicoulous . The demonbred has fire 2 as well but can fly .
The ant dragon has 3 fire + 4 holy in total so 7 paths while the demonbred has 2 fire 2 blood and 3 holy = 7 paths also . And the demonbred can fly as a bonus .
Only disadvantage : Capitol only .

3 fire means easier access to higher level rituals than 2 fire does (and less fatigue for combat spells if that is what you want to use him for)
4 holy is much, much, better than 3 Holy when fighting together with normal armies (if you want to use the holy at all)

You cannot compare only by the sum of paths - you need to check what they can be used for.

The Demonbred is more versatile and mobile than the Anathenant Salamander, but the Salamander is much more powerful in his specialties.

[Boron]

Yeah Peter Ebbesen but what about my argument that the anameth salamander and dragon are more or less useless against most enemies they encounter ?

Mictlan especially can as easy or easier get devil hordes than Abysia . Then your fire magic is totally useless .
And any opponent that attacks you as Abysia will give his SCs and perhaps even his better mages 100% fire resistence items so they are useless here as well .

The pythium theurg is way more flexible here cause he can cast either quickened false horrors or ligthnings against normal troops and with a +1 astral item or with a communion he can use enslave mind and soul slay against SCs or thunder strike etc. during a communion .

[PDF]

I won't enter into price of mages debate, I don't think i's the real issue...
Indeed, what will change in an Aby game if mages would cost 30% less ? Not much, as the Blood mages are capitol-only, you get 1/turn anyway - only difference is that you'll have on average maybe 1.5 Fire gem/turn more - you won't have to sell them due to cheaper prices...
Balance-wise it's very insignificant... Granted that's not true for Salamanders, and overall Aby would be richer, so have some more Salamanders as well as troops. But it still doesn't seem to me that a big deal.
OTOH making the basic Warlock Appr NOT capitol-only is a real deal, because it will allow much more effective BH by Aby - even if the mages are expensive ...

What about WA at 200 Gold but buildable everywhere ?

[Peter Ebbesen]

Boron said:
Yeah Peter Ebbesen but what about my argument that the anameth salamander and dragon are more or less useless against most enemies they encounter ?

I would say that that claim was widely exaggerated. Most enemies you are likely to encounter in a game are neither devils nor fire-immune SCs. And, of course, the Holy 4 on the Dragon stays useful for helping your own side for the duration of the game, even if you do end up - in the very late game - fighting only fire-immune critters. You can even have phoenix pyre'd L3, L4, or L5 priests running around if you want to, which does wonders for their survival ratio.

It is of course true that mid-to-late game all SCs you encounter are going to be equipped with fire-protection because they know fire is one of your strenghts that they have to counter. That is quite fine as it takes up slots that would have been used for other items and possibly gives your own non-fire-using SCs a small advantage on the opposition. The same goes for air. If your enemy is airbased, you need air resistance. It is hardly a fire specialty.

Mictlan especially can as easy or easier get devil hordes than Abysia . Then your fire magic is totally useless .

The moral here being? That you should use your devil hordes vs. their devil hordes, that you should try to ally them, or that you should use your superior normal forces to crush Michtlan early (if possible?) I don't think that the moral is "fire magic is totally useless"

The pythium theurg is way more flexible here cause he can cast either quickened false horrors or ligthnings against normal troops and with a +1 astral item or with a communion he can use enslave mind and soul slay against SCs or thunder strike etc. during a communion .

Yes, the Pythium theurg is way more flexible. He is a member of the strongest mage-priesthood in the world. Pythium lives - and dies - by its mages. Compared to Abysia, its ordinary troops suck big time. What is your point? That the Abysians should get cheap mages because Pythium does? The whole point of Pythium is cheap and versatile theurgs plus expensive arch-theurgs boosted by communion. The point of Abysia is the combination of strong troops, priests, decent magic, and good blood.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Peter Ebbesen said:
Abysia is the nation that gains [...] What a lot of positives!

And you forgot at least one: an unmatched ability (although Marignon comes close) to jumpstart the nation by efficiently alchemizing these early gems to gold.

How about comparing themes in entirity rather than merely a unit from theme A vs unit from theme B basis.

Well, if the OP changes all units in Dominions to cost 30% less, I think he might end up with a well-balanced mod.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Boron said:
Mictlan especially can as easy or easier get devil hordes than Abysia . Then your fire magic is totally useless .

That might be true in 1-on-1 Abysia vs Mictlan games, but I don't believe they're so common. For the remaining ~99%, the synergy in Devils + Fire magic is just plain obvious.

[Boron]

Peter Ebbesen said:

Yes, the Pythium theurg is way more flexible. He is a member of the strongest mage-priesthood in the world. Pythium lives - and dies - by its mages. Compared to Abysia, its ordinary troops suck big time. What is your point? That the Abysians should get cheap mages because Pythium does? The whole point of Pythium is cheap and versatile theurgs plus expensive arch-theurgs boosted by communion. The point of Abysia is the combination of strong troops, priests, decent magic, and good blood.

My whole point is that i think Cohen's price reduction makes sense .
You have to admit that a theurg is still way more useful than a anathmet salamander which costs now the same in Cohen's mod .
As PDF said these small changes aren't insane they just help Abysia a bit . If Abysia really needs this is another question but at least it doesn't hurt the game balance neither .

And probably Cohen will improve slightly a few other mages as well and then the comparision is meaningless anyway .