Poll: morale and routing

[Cainehill]

Boron said:
second zen and norfleet were always handled as the most experienced dominions 2 players .
since norfleet cheated probably zen was .

And here I was thinking I should express regret for the way I expressed myself, if not for the content of my previous post.

You're now say that Zen probably cheated, because Norfleet did. I really didn't express myself emphatically enough, in retrospect.

and why can't i compare starcraft with dominions ?
starcraft is the best example that comes to my mind to show how really good balance should work expect chess .

You really just don't get it. Starcraft had a _very_ limitted number of troops, for each of 3 sides. That made it possible for Blizzard to balance each unit against the other units. It also made for a totally different game, in that there _aren't_ any particularly clever, ingenious tactics and strategies for the game - no one spends hours dreaming up neat things to try in Starcraft.

It's a great RTS - but it isn't in any way possible to compare the two, except for that "Well, they're both computer games". RTS vice turn-based, limitted units vice over 1000 unit types, not to mention that fact that the random nature of magic sites, "special" independents, and the like mean that no two games of Dom2 play alike.

And to bring up chess as an example of balanced illustrates your cluelessness even more.

if zen would have said what i said probably not as many ppl would have argued against me i guess .

If Zen had made stupid statements and arguments, people would have argued against him just as much. But Zen didn't tend to write idiocy.

but how can't you find it unfair that a summon costs no upkeep while a national unit does ?
furthermore the rule no upkeep for summons is not strict :
trolls cost upkeep .

I don't think this word 'unfair' means what you think it does. If one player didn't have to pay upkeep, while another player _did_ have to pay upkeep, this would be 'unfair'. Since everyone has the same conditions, it's perfectly fair, except for when someone _cheats_.

so if you were an arch demon wouldn't you complain to have to work for no MONTHLY WAGE at all while a lousy knight gets a quite high wage of several gold ?!?
in most fantasy worlds like dsa or ad&d especially the evil mighty creatures ( monsters like dragons , demons ) demand continious new tributes to keep them working for you .
in dominions a poor arch demon doesn't get even a lousy blood slave / turn as payment .

this is nothing but unfair !

This is nothing but drivel, actually. Dom2 isn't AD&D, it isn't Starcraft, it isn't chess.

And even _IN_ AD&D, demons worked for squat, didly, nada, nothing. Or perhaps you've forgotten all those monster summoning spells, that conjured forth goblins, imps, even cacodemons, to fight and die for the mage for NO PAY AT ALL. They're compelled by the magic.

Oh - you want unfair, in Dom2? How about the fact that you can have blind units with no arms, and you still have to PAY them.

Feh. I'm so glad you think you've put forth some of your "best and most convincing arguments"; you're truly casting pearls before swine. I'm sure that it's just that many of us, including the developers, simply can't comprehend your brilliance, unlike the 'experts' like Cohen and Tauren. Thank you for attempting to enlighten us, but we're not worthy.

[Arryn]

Boron said:
so far only you continue arguing against me though .

I'm more stubborn than most. My greater age just makes it worse. If there was truly wisdom with age, I'd've given up trying to make you see reason long ago.

Boron said:
-either all others got bored or just think i tell nonsense and gave up because they think it is impossible to convince me .

The slice from Occam's Razor yields this cut.

[Boron]

Thufir said:

And you, Boron, are a very hopeful man!

its still the innocence of being young i guess

[Arryn]

Boron said:
its still the innocence of being young i guess

Too bad he won't listen to his elders, only his age-mates.

[Boron]

Cainehill said:

And here I was thinking I should express regret for the way I expressed myself, if not for the content of my previous post.

You're now say that Zen probably cheated, because Norfleet did. I really didn't express myself emphatically enough, in retrospect.

thnx for quoting out of context and doing misinformation .

i said since norfleet was cheating probably zen was the best dominions player present here on the board by public opinion .


really good way to cut the rest of my post out and giving my praise for zen by this way a totally other context .

[Arryn]

Cainehill said:

You're now say that Zen probably cheated, because Norfleet did. I really didn't express myself emphatically enough, in retrospect.

You've misread what he said, although that's not surprising since Boron habitually excludes punctuation and capitalization, plus you're more than a bit peeved at him and thus prone to jumping a tad too quick. What he said was that both were considered "experts", but since Norfy cheated, Norfy being an expert is called into question, leaving Zen as the true expert.

Of course, there are various others here that I consider experts, all of whom have disagreed with Boron, but he's chosen to ignore their Posts and reply just to yours and mine. Odd behavior, but not entirely unexpected.

[Gandalf Parker]

Boron said:
so far only you continue arguing against me though .

2 possible explanations :
-either all others got bored or just think i tell nonsense and gave up because they think it is impossible to convince me .

-or most start to see that my argument about upkeep is good and they see that there are no things that speak against .


probably it is explantion 1 but hope dies always Last

I think it was more #1 than #2. From the other threads here I think people are more than willing to post "I agree" Posts.

As far as I can see you base this whole thing on opinions of the game as a head-to-head player competition with strength units. Thats far from my preferred type of playing style. You seem to have sparked the interest of some people who do tend to do well with that style but dont be too surprised if people who play solo, stealth, magically, diplomatically, or swarm (just to name a few) have wandered off to other threads.

You also appear to have a fondness for "balanced units" games (which by the way tend to bore me to death). The rock-paper-scissor balance (nothing is too strong as long as SOMETHING can beat it) which DOm2 does at national level (not that a unit can be beat, but only that a nation can outpower a nation as long as there is another nation which can beat it)

As far as the summons thing, your search for balanced logic is fine. But there isnt alot of agreement that its a problem. And the fix would affect other points of balance.

[Stossel]

The rock-paper-scissor balance (nothing is too strong as long as SOMETHING can beat it) which DOm2 does at national level (not that a unit can be beat, but only that a nation can outpower a nation as long as there is another nation which can beat it)

As far as the summons thing, your search for balanced logic is fine. But there isnt alot of agreement that its a problem. And the fix would affect other points of balance.

I agree with this balance idea but it has a small caveat. The counter to a possibly unbalanced strategy has to be as easy or easier to do accomplish than the strategy in question. If not, then it is unbalanced because the questioned strategy will win through attrition.

There's no doubt in my mind that there are some strategies/nations that are in this unbalanced Category. They don't need a complete nerf, but they need to be checked properly. This is what all games struggle with, not just starcraft, or steel panthers or whatever, all strategic games of all types deal with it. Given time players will always migrate to the strongest strategies, and then once the optimal strategies are found, the information hunting (scouting, scrying, etc.), and the rock-paper-scissoresque play begins.

[Boron]

steel panthers is different it should be as realistic as possible so that there the germans are sligthly stronger doesn't hurt the game .

FM_Surrigon in starcraft are no stronger strategies .
as you pointed out intelligence is important .

a zealot/ling rush kills a teching terra . but if the terra has only a few flamethrowers he will beat this .
if you don't scout and play blind a e.g. zealot rush it is dangerous because you put all eggs in one basket .


gandalf one question because i am curious :
do you like chess ?


edit : one other question : do you like the random events in dominions or hate them ?



i took luck 3 !! and lost on turn 3 my lab . since my treasure is exactly 186 this way i have 2 turns without researching which throws me back just toooo much .

boron wrote

i have made so many arguments now why there should be upkeep cost for summons .

can anyone of you give me 1 conclusive argument why summons + national troops should be treated different upkeep wise or why the current upkeep system of dominions is fair ?

1. It's not a question of "fair". It's a question of achieving the overal thematic feel that the developers want, while retaining overall game balance.

2. Walking trees can't do anything with gold, so why would they want to be paid with it?

3. Powerful magics and monsters are cool. That's why mahy of us play Dominions. I don't want to play a game that's focused on national troops, because that would be too much like World War II with funny names.

4. Small changes can have massive and hard-to-predict effects. So the default position should be, IMO, that the only reason to introduce a change is to fix something that's broken. The game works. Until you can demonstrate such broken-ness based on actual MP experience, the conservatives such as myselft are not going to agree that changes should be made.

Mark