your favourite 2.12 vq nation

[Cainehill]

[quote]Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

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Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

No, they don't get an armor piercing 20 damage single-handed lifedrain attack, no matter what weapon you give them.

Two words: Astral Weapon.

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Cha! You know as well as anyone that no sane person puts Sorcery on a non-immortal pretender, unless perhaps they put an obscene (8-10) amount on.

Therefor, only immortal pretenders and a few others are going to commonly be able to use Astral Weapon, and let's see - the Phoenix can't use a weapon, the monolith, Baphomet, and Shedu have no hands (and no attack for the first two - lot of good Astral Weapon does them ). So generally speaking - only the liches, bog mummie, and VQ might realistically be seen with Astral Weapon.

Oh, wait! The Great Enchantress maybe, since she starts with Astral magic? I can just see her going into melee combat.

(Well, actually, I did just see one do that, and my Jonin wasted her after dealing with her troll bodyguards. So much for S4 and whatnot. )

[Stormbinder]

[quote]Originally posted by Cainehill:

quote:

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Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

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Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

No, they don't get an armor piercing 20 damage single-handed lifedrain attack, no matter what weapon you give them.

Two words: Astral Weapon.

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Cha! You know as well as anyone that no sane person puts Sorcery on a non-immortal pretender, unless perhaps they put an obscene (8-10) amount on.

Therefor, only immortal pretenders and a few others are going to commonly be able to use Astral Weapon, and let's see - the Phoenix can't use a weapon, the monolith, Baphomet, and Shedu have no hands (and no attack for the first two - lot of good Astral Weapon does them ). So generally speaking - only the liches, bog mummie, and VQ might realistically be seen with Astral Weapon.

Oh, wait! The Great Enchantress maybe, since she starts with Astral magic? I can just see her going into melee combat.

(Well, actually, I did just see one do that, and my Jonin wasted her after dealing with her troll bodyguards. So much for S4 and whatnot. )

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Wow. Cianehill disagreeing with Norfleet.

/Stormbinder rubs his eyes to make sure it is not an strange dream/

To Norf: 2 words - Mind Duel. Inless you get huge ammount of astral up to at least 8+, which would force you to waste huge ammount of points on most SC pretenders.

[ August 03, 2004, 02:51: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
To Norf: 2 words - Mind Duel. Inless you get huge ammount of astral up to at least 8+, which would force you to waste huge ammount of points on most SC pretenders.

There are ways of getting Astral Weapon onto your pretender without being able to actually cast it. If you are driving, say, a Void Lord, in any case, you're already stuck with the Astral anyway. And hey, the Void Lord has a nice Life Drain tentacle, one which he can't lose by wielding a weapon.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
There are ways of getting Astral Weapon onto your pretender without being able to actually cast it.

So you are going to put a slave matrix or blood slaves on your pretender, and have him go sessile as soon as your masters cast any spells? There's no other legal way to get astral weapon on a unit without having astral magic.

Originally posted by Zapmeister:

quote:

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Originally posted by Norfleet:
Immortality is worth less than subtle behavior tweak that it induces.

But that's all part of having immortality, which rocks both because of its direct effect, and the indirect ones. Add it to all the other VQ powers and you get a pretender that is still, in my view, a tad overpowered (and, by observation, still disproportionately popular).

I liked the idea of fire-100 vulnerability.

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But is the VQ's popularity due to objective assesments of its strengths, or because people find the idea of immortality an attractive safety blanket (even though its strategic value turns out to be pretty limited), or simply because Vampires Are Cool?

[Zapmeister]

Originally posted by Mark the Merciful:
But is the VQ's popularity due to objective assesments of its strengths, or because people find the idea of immortality an attractive safety blanket (even though its strategic value turns out to be pretty limited), or simply because Vampires Are Cool?

I don't know. But I do know that if you nerf something sufficiently, you will make it less popular. And if it was previously over-popular, then a greater variety of pretenders will see the light of day.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Mark the Merciful:
But is the VQ's popularity due to objective assesments of its strengths, or because people find the idea of immortality an attractive safety blanket (even though its strategic value turns out to be pretty limited), or simply because Vampires Are Cool?

It's some combination of all of the above. My attachment to it is primarily because its strengths happen to mesh well with my playing style. As a result of the nerfing round making it considerably less affordable, I've dumped it from many national strategies, or greatly de-emphasized it, even if I retain it purely for psychological value. There are, of course, others who cling to it anyway, even after I've said it wasn't affordable anymore, but these are people who I am pummelling. Of course, the "vampires are cool" crowd, well, they're hard to discourage. I know several who want to take them simply because "vampire chicks are sexy". These people take their VQs, and don't actually really use them to fight at all.

Originally posted by Zapmeister:
I don't know. But I do know that if you nerf something sufficiently, you will make it less popular. And if it was previously over-popular, then a greater variety of pretenders will see the light of day.

Part of the VQ's popularity may simply be flavor. I mean, you look at the alternatives, and, well, they're kinda meh, from a thematic viewpoint. Just look at some of the demigod options: Unless you're a big fan of the mythology they spring from, there's not much appeal to them: Some of them look kinda silly, and their mommas dress them funny.

Originally posted by Zapmeister:
I don't know. But I do know that if you nerf something sufficiently, you will make it less popular. And if it was previously over-popular, then a greater variety of pretenders will see the light of day.

I don't at all like this line of reasoning, but it does lead to the point I was aiming at when asking my previous question.

If the VQ is popular becuase it's overpowered - and therefore the obvious choice for munchkins everywhere - then nerfing is a valid option. But if it's popular simply because people like it... Well they paid money for the game, and they're entitled to play it how they want. I don't think nerfing the VQ into oblivion just to make people choose other Pretenders is a reasonable objective to aim for.

[archaeolept]

it was the munchkin uberpretender par excellence. it perhaps still is, but at least you have to pay for it now. the vast popularity it held amongst pubbies was in large part simply a reflection of it's reputation as a munchkin uberpretender - a lot of newbies would take it in some MP game because they had heard how strong she was. However, they usually didn't know how to use her.

Norfleet is being a bit disingenuous. i think all those games i've seen him playing since 2.12 where a VQ is an option, he has taken the VQ. before the patch he also tried the line that the GK was "in many ways the superior pretender", but I also never saw him take the GK when the VQ was an option.



at least now i don't feel dirty picking her as a pretender. immortality may still be too powerful, but at least she is no longer ridiculously underpriced.

[Boron]

Originally posted by archaeolept:
it was the munchkin uberpretender par excellence. it perhaps still is, but at least you have to pay for it now. the vast popularity it held amongst pubbies was in large part simply a reflection of it's reputation as a munchkin uberpretender - a lot of newbies would take it in some MP game because they had heard how strong she was. However, they usually didn't know how to use her.

Norfleet is being a bit disingenuous. i think all those games i've seen him playing since 2.12 where a VQ is an option, he has taken the VQ. before the patch he also tried the line that the GK was "in many ways the superior pretender", but I also never saw him take the GK when the VQ was an option.



at least now i don't feel dirty picking her as a pretender. immortality may still be too powerful, but at least she is no longer ridiculously underpriced.

the problem now is that it gives some races an edge . e.g. caelum + abysia can still afford a vq . both are already strong without vq though .


i still think susceptile to fire 100 for the vq is a good solution .
it is thematic anyway because vampires get killed by the sun + they don't like fire too .
this will make the vq still good but not slightly overpowered as she still is .
all the other undead immortal pretenders like the lichs have that -100 fire resistence .

this way the vq still can be used as a super early game expander and for combat but has to chose to either do something against the -100 fire resistence or live with it .

she already has 2 resistences + most wished built in abilities . this way she can take 1-2 useful items more than anyone else .
flying -----> boots of quickness -----> no jade armor needed etc.

another advantage of the vq is she has D1B2 . so she can easily chainsummon vampires .
a vq abysia with chainsummoned vampires / vampire lords pushing dominion by blood sacrifice is scary