Petition to Save the Moloch!

[major^3]

there really is no use arguing that "he can still be useful in combat you dont know how to use him" because the imps *are* supposed to be a benefit but are really a hindrance because the Moloch routs AS SOON AS they die and they die fast because they fly and enter combat immediately and are weak.

the only thing that needs to be done is code the moloch not to rout when his imps die, that is it!

[PvK]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
...
No one's arguing that the Moloch makes a fine devil commander, though. Hmm....
...

Maybe because we have been abstaining from participating in discussions where people abUSE the root "use" and spout inaccurate hyperbole. Moloch with devils and/or other strong fliers under his command is flaming death from above.

Graeme is also of course entirely correct that characters with high fire magic can scorch the earth and then fly in to disembowel the survivors, without much fatigue, and with nice penetration bonuses, etc.

Routing when the imps die is a bug which should be fixed, but saying the Moloch is "useless" just proves that all of Norfleet's Messages should be censored with a filter than replaces all assertions of "uselessness" with phrases such as "inefficient", "problematic", "sub-optimal", "sub-par", "imperfect", "flawed", "not the best", "not able to fly 3 provinces and wipe out an entire army by himself in one turn with a <1% risk of affliction", etc.

PvK

[NTJedi]

I agree the Moloch should be fixed. It's not just the Moloch which needs fixing... other important fixes/improvements include:

1) The auto-killing of attacking units after X amount of turns during battle should be switched into an auto-retreat.

2) Improving the Arena Death Match event so human players view it as worthwhile sending someone... the prize is not worth the life of a good commander. Also computer opponents should NOT be sending their pretenders into the Arena Death Match event... that's a big flaw.

--------

All of these topics have been around for awhile... would be nice to get a developers opinion about these suggested improvements. For example if we knew the developers were not going to change the Moloch or one of these other suggestions then we'd stop seeing them over and over.

[Spacepain]

For those individuals here that would prefer keeping the moloch in its present cowardly state, why not have imps pop up in the providence Moloch is residing, in the fashion that Vampires apear in providences where the VQ is.

This way, the player is given the option of whether he wants to keep those useless imps in tow or not, or if he wants them to be a burden to some other less important commander.

[ July 06, 2004, 21:13: Message edited by: Spacepain ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by PvK:
Maybe because we have been abstaining from participating in discussions where people abUSE the root "use" and spout inaccurate hyperbole.

No, I stand by my statement that the Moloch is useless as an SC. He's still useful as a general pretender chassis....but useless as an SC: If you actually attempt to use him as such, the imps get him every time. Sure, you can send him in with a ton of rabble, but then you've undermined his usage as an SC.

[PvK]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
... No, I stand by my statement that the Moloch is useless as an SC. He's still useful as a general pretender chassis....but useless as an SC: If you actually attempt to use him as such, the imps get him every time. Sure, you can send him in with a ton of rabble, but then you've undermined his usage as an SC. ...

They only make him rout if he enters combat alone, which he does not have to do to be considered a SC. This is a buggy weakness which detracts from his value, and prevents him from being used effectively in the one specific way of being sent in alone, but it does not make him useless as a SC. It doesn't even make him useless as a solo fire brigade SC, because you can have minor forces all over the map, and he just needs to coordinate his moves with theirs to have the necessary "cheerleaders" present. Having him lead a bunch of devils though is one obvious, simple and effective thing to do.

I agree the imp/rout thing is a silly bug that cripples one specific way he might be used otherwise. I just object to your over-use and abuse of the term "useless" and related expressions, as in:

Originally posted by Norfleet:
... As it stands, the Moloch is only useful for his cheap fire blessing ...

Exaggeration. There are other very useful uses, and even some efficient ones, even on the battlefield, as long as someone besides the Moloch and his Imps are present.

Originally posted by Norfleet:
... His cowardice renders him useless as an SC despite his otherwise impressive stats.
...

Only if you insist that the only "SC" use is by strict definition without any accompanying units. Since you responded to Truper's "not in the 'Lone Ranger' mode" point in practical rather than semantic terms, it seems you accept that this is a way the Moloch can be used - you simply find it sub-optimal, because you would prefer to be able to fly in alone without the imp/rout problem, as a PoD can.

Originally posted by Norfleet:
... the only reason to take him at all is for the Fire-9 bless" ...

Exaggeration/wrong. You could take him to get cheap higher fire, for magic or for the blessing you yourself mentioned. You could also use him as a flying army commander/combattant.

Originally posted by Norfleet:
... These certainly account for his 25 extra points in cost, but Imps make this little edge useless, since all you have to do is kill the stupid imps, and they practically beg for it, flinging themselves into the enemy like that, and the Moloch is gone, possibly dead, if you planned it. ...

Exaggeration/wrong. It won't happen if there are other friendly units present.

Originally posted by Norfleet:
... Fire certainly has excellent artillery spells, but this is useless for an SC, unless your intent is to use the Moloch as an artillery caster, which is something he can do well, but makes his combat stats mostly irrelevant in that case. ...

Exaggeration/wrong. It's not "useless" to be able to cast, say, Fire Shield on yourself before flying into combat, or Heat From Hell, or some arty spells with very low fatigue cost and very high penetration, before jumping into combat.

PvK

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by PvK:
They only make him rout if he enters combat alone, which he does not have to do to be considered a SC. This is a buggy weakness which detracts from his value, and prevents him from being used effectively in the one specific way of being sent in alone, but it does not make him useless as a SC.

It detracts GREATLY from his value as an SC: Since he can't actually wipe out an army solo, he no longer truly qualifies.

It doesn't even make him useless as a solo fire brigade SC, because you can have minor forces all over the map, and he just needs to coordinate his moves with theirs to have the necessary "cheerleaders" present.

It's hard to guarantee that there will be both a few archers you can use as an anchor (as any melee troops will charge in and die unless you have a cripple squad, which is more unusual), and a commander you can detach to drag them in as your cheerleading section. Even then, if you start lobbing Firestorms, they're all gonna die. Fast.

Having him lead a bunch of devils though is one obvious, simple and effective thing to do.

Sure, but at this point, his role as a commander of a horde of devils has superceded his role as an SC. Unless you bring a reasonably large number of devils, even the devils will die.

I agree the imp/rout thing is a silly bug that cripples one specific way he might be used otherwise. I just object to your over-use and abuse of the term "useless" and related expressions, as in:

Exaggeration. There are other very useful uses, and even some efficient ones, even on the battlefield, as long as someone besides the Moloch and his Imps are present.

Yes, sure, if you want to reduce his role to that of a petty commander and artillerist....there are other pretenders which can accomplish this job just fine, at lesser cost, or enhanced functionality elsewhere.

Only if you insist that the only "SC" use is by strict definition without any accompanying units. Since you responded to Truper's "not in the 'Lone Ranger' mode" point in practical rather than semantic terms, it seems you accept that this is a way the Moloch can be used - you simply find it sub-optimal, because you would prefer to be able to fly in alone without the imp/rout problem, as a PoD can.

If you can't fulfill this requirement, then you tend to fail some of the basic criteria of an SC: Somebody who can crush armies solo: The necessity of towing chaff, which can be quite encumbering, as your selection of chaff that can keep up with you and not die immediately is limited. It's true that the Moloch is a good fighter, but as it is unfeasible to operate him solo without practically guaranteeing your mission fails, perhaps very dramatically, on even mild resistance far below the class of the Moloch itself, he's not really a true SC.

Exaggeration/wrong. You could take him to get cheap higher fire, for magic or for the blessing you yourself mentioned. You could also use him as a flying army commander/combattant.

If you want a flying army commander, for, say, devils, the PoD can work just as well, at reduced cost, and improved functionality: The Moloch gets you the low-cost F9 bless.

Exaggeration/wrong. It won't happen if there are other friendly units present.

Other commanders don't count. Other units tend to slow you down.

Exaggeration/wrong. It's not "useless" to be able to cast, say, Fire Shield on yourself before flying into combat, or Heat From Hell, or some arty spells with very low fatigue cost and very high penetration, before jumping into combat.

That's just throwing on some damage and pain shields and maybe firing off a few potshots before charging into a fight....which you won't get to do if your imps have routed you before you finish. This is fine and good, but doesn't really address the issue.

In the end, the Moloch is currently "cheap fire blessing dude". His effectiveness as a warrior is greatly hampered by his craven cowardice.

[Cainehill]

Also note that you can't take advantage of one of the huge benefits of having a flying Pretender or other SC : being able to attack behind enemy lines. Dragons, PoD, Virtue, Manticore, etc can all very effectively fly into enemy territory and easily nail a province.

The Moloch can't, because the bloody imps will show up, race at the militia / PD, and almost instantly rout. At this point, the Moloch dies because a couple of puny, totally disposable units got wounded and ran away.

A Virtue on the other paw, even in the early game, can effectively "cherry pick" isolated provinces to attack and conquer. Likewise a dragon, PoD, etc. The Moloch would die to 30 LI attempting to do the same.

[Cohen]

A starting artilley pretender is almost useless.
I tried Moloch in MP games, and used it with my army.

Other player took twice the land I got by using their pretender to take 1 province, and army to take another.

I had both of them taking 1 province.

This slows you a lot since the enemy has the double of your income potentially (well if he starts in the middle of wastes and you in the middle of farms...it's a little different but I've never seen this), and could have more mages/temples/castles later to get a winning edge.

I agree with dropping Imps like PoD drops undeads here and there, instead of having imps in battle.

[PvK]

Again, I have no strong disagreement against those points. I was just complaining about overuse of "useless" to mean anything but "has NO use".

I'd add that not only should the imp routing not rout the Moloch, but they should also be guarding him, rather than charging into the wild. Or, as suggested, just dropping an imp every now and then (1/turn?) would be good.

PvK