help please with pretender SC's for early expansion

[Boron]

what do i need to do to have a good pretender for early expansion from turn 3-5 on ?
at indeps 6+

i read much about sc's here on the forums
and many ppl say they have early expanding pretenders which kill alone one indi province / turn after turn 3-5 .

all my tries so far were in vain
what are good pretenders for this ?
the wyrm ?

but my problem is even if there is no heavy cavalry/knights but e.g. heavy infantry my pretender is surrounded quick and killed quick

but if you start conquering at turn 3-5 you can normally only research 1 path to lvl 2 or 2-3 to lvl 1 .
i tried a fire shield on a wyrm and it worked not too bad but he still got killed in the 3rd province after he conquered 2 very narrow .

exept the cyclops all other pretenders have very low starting protection . most don't have recuperation so if not playing arco an early bad battle affliction hurts really too .

perhaps i should try the vq but the most useful nation for her is ihmo ermor because she needs a lot of points but ermor may not use her anymore .
i'll maybe give her a try with abysia .

so please enlighten me humble beeing in how to build an early sc pretender

[Kel]

Originally posted by Boron:
what do i need to do to have a good pretender for early expansion from turn 3-5 on ?

Well, there isn't a single formula but you can find most of what you need in the alteration path by Alt-3, to start with. There are other things you can do, and you should experiement with, but the base I usually start with is E/A2/W and script quickness, ironskin, mistform, mirror image. That alone will suffice for most indies.

There are a variety of other spells that are handy (breath of winter, soul vortex, invulnerability, fire shield, strength of gaia, regen, etc.) but they will vary, depending on nation, pretender chassis, points and the strat you want to use.

Some general notes:
If you are looking at a very large fight, you will need to worry about the encumbrance of your pretender as well. Against most indies, it isn't really a problem as they will turn and run long before you have to kill them all but in especially large fights, encumberance can get you killed.

Pretenders with low slots and high HP tend to be more fitted to the early game, for their price.

There are a lot of handy astral spells that are low level and path but having a small amount of astral will make your pretender extremely vulnerable to any astral mage with the mind duel spell so it is usually avoided.

perhaps i should try the vq but the most useful nation for her is ihmo ermor because she needs a lot of points but ermor may not use her anymore .
i'll maybe give her a try with abysia .

I still use her with some nations, the ones that I play with sloth/death, mostly. Order and magic are often the only scales I see in the positive numbers but that's just me.

That said, if you have less points to spend, there are definitely other good choices, especially since the re-balancing of the VQ (which was quite well done, imo). Most of what you want is fairly obvious (good base hp, in built abilities, slots, initial path/dominion, etc.), Encumberance is the only thing that might deserve special attention.

- Kel

[ July 03, 2004, 23:48: Message edited by: Kel ]

[Cainehill]

There's really a lot of possible pretender choices that can get you rolling by somewhere in between turn 3 and 7. (Note that I don't say 3 and 5, because some nations & pretenders have a harder time doing the research needed.)

One key thing, early on, is that you don't try for provinces with certain troops guarding it (knights and heavy cavalry you already know; crossbows, longbows, barbarians and lizardmen you should also tread carefully with); you also don't take (most) pretenders alone into a province where there are too many troops.

Many reasons for that : fatigue, with most pretenders (albeit a high protection, high HP pretender can take provinces while "napping", with breath of winter and fire shield up); your defense is lowered for each attack (or attacker) past the first, so that 19 defense isn't too impressive when the sixth attacker swings.

There are exceptions : you can often take 70 troops early on with a good SC pretender, if it's only militia, light infantry, and archers. Of course - there might always be some wizards for commanders, so there's almost always a chance for death.

Some things that really help early expansion : huge protection rating, which is boosted by 1 for every point of earth magic. A 12 protection pretender with 9 points in earth magic has an impressive 21 armor rating, and a pretty good bless with some nations. He also has Earth Shards for negligable fatigue (10 or 20, divided by 8, plus encumbrance) and lots of rocks - awesome for militia, archers, barbarians, and other lightly armored types.

A high fear rating or high awe rating does wonders too, as the enemies either can't attack (awe) or rout quickly (fear). Being ethereal means that 3/4 of their blows pass through you with no damage.

Naturally having multiple attacks helps; having some tough minions in every battle can help or hurt, but does tend to keep your pretender from dying. (By tough minions, I refer to serpents, lions, etc, that have reasonable morale, and can't fly.)

Other things vary by nation : a high-fire Phoenix can romp with Marignon or Abysia, because each nation starts with a potent fire spell (Holy Pyre / Flare), and doesn't mind dying in friendly domain. Similarly, any high death pretender can do well with Ermor, scripting 5 casts of Summon Skeletons - the liches and vampire having an edge, because again, they don't mind dying.

And remember - not all nations need, or do best, with a solo SC. Some that have decent troops thrive by having the pretender go along with a small contingent of troops, or spell casting pretenders. Once Vanheim researches Evocation 2, a couple of lightning casting Van-commanders with a set of regular troops do wonders.

Biggest thing to remember - learn your pretender's strengths and weaknesses, and choose provinces to attack accordingly.

[djtool]

You can use those afformentioned spells on your worm, lets say, and it'll work well but be wary of making a SC pretender that isn't immortal or doesn't have recuperation...they can rack up the afflictions pretty bad.

[Boron]

thnx for the tips cainehill and djtool .

guess i always wanted to much to quick .
a question since i experimented a bit :
i tried ctis desert tombs .
my summoned tomb wyrms are unholy . works blessing for them as well ?
or only for holy units ?
because i tried a scorpion king with fire 9 earth 9 . got quite lousy dominion scales through this but i think it is okay .
although no optimal sc the scorpion king is quite ok with casting fire shield , 4x your suggested flying shards + attack closest

unfortunately i got some very bad events like burned temple in my capitol on turn 3 so i have to restart and couldn't test if bless works on my tomb wyrms

[Endoperez]

Originally posted by Boron:
unfortunately i got some very bad events like burned temple in my capitol on turn 3 so i have to restart and couldn't test if bless works on my tomb wyrms

Remember that when testing, if you are going to play multiplayer, you have to be ready for the worst outcome as well. If you are playing just for fun, or to try out if a strategy is viable at all, then I can understand starting a new game though. I started about 6 new games yesterday, and created maybe four other pretenders I didn't even bother trying, as I were checking Atlantis. They have really bad pretender selection for bless effect!

[Boron]

Originally posted by Endoperez:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boron:
unfortunately i got some very bad events like burned temple in my capitol on turn 3 so i have to restart and couldn't test if bless works on my tomb wyrms

Remember that when testing, if you are going to play multiplayer, you have to be ready for the worst outcome as well. If you are playing just for fun, or to try out if a strategy is viable at all, then I can understand starting a new game though. I started about 6 new games yesterday, and created maybe four other pretenders I didn't even bother trying, as I were checking Atlantis. They have really bad pretender selection for bless effect!

---

it was for testing purposes only if the strat is viable
at least the wyrms can be blessed . but unfortunately although it says they are sacred they can be blessed only by unholy priests .
thats not good at all for my strat
cause the only unholy priests who can summon a wyrm / turn are the lvl 4 for 23 deathgemcost .
the battlefieldwide blessing requires lvl 4 too grrr so it is nothing for earlygame and in mid/lategame there are not very useful any more

another question where can i find a list of corrected bless effects ? the manual says i get +4 prot through earth 9 but i only got +3 .

[Endoperez]

Originally posted by Boron:
another question where can i find a list of corrected bless effects ? the manual says i get +4 prot through earth 9 but i only got +3 .

Are you sure this is not the case of natural protection and protection from armor not being just summed together?

Zen answered this question in February, when Onomastikon thirsted for this knowledge.


Here is the formula for you, from the Newbie FAQ.

How do you calculate total protection on a unit with natural protection (thick skin) and armor? According to Johan O.:
"Pb = base protection, intrinsic, from stone skin etc.
Pa = protection from armor
Pt = total protection
Pb and Pa are always restricted to 40 or less. (This quote has been changed because the forum Boards cannot handle greater than and less than symbols - Cherry)

Pt=Pb+Pa -(Pa*Pb)/40
So a unit with 10 intrinsic 10 protection and a total of 18 in equipment armor would have an effective armor of: 10+18 - (10*18) /40 = 28-4.5 = 23.5, rounded up to 24"

[ July 04, 2004, 11:38: Message edited by: Endoperez ]

[Boron]

Originally posted by Endoperez:

Are you sure this is not the case of natural protection and protection from armor not being just summed together?


[/quote]

the tomb wyrm has no armor and a basic protection value of 10 so i thought it should be 14.
thnx for the formula

[Endoperez]

I am not sure about what exactly is going on in here, but it seems that either even natural protections gained from multiple sources do not stack straight on or Earth lvl 9 bless effect is added as an armor protection, not as natural.

This is because if you calculate 10 (base prot of Tomb Wyrms) and 4 (Earth bless) together you will get 4+10 - ( 4*10 / 40) => 14-1 final protection value.