How much should a Random-5 Mage cost?

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Scott Hebert:
Can anyone tell me if the picks of the Loremaster are indeed random?

Very likely. I've seen 1-1-1-1, 2-1-1, 2-2 and 3-1, although I'm not sure I've ever seen an all-elemental or an all-sorcery. So it's either 4 x 1? or 1Elem + 1Sorc + 2 x 1?.

Also, does anyone know of a large detriment to the Circle Master?

If you're looking for hidden weaknesses in the Circle Master that would explain his low cost, he hasn't any - at least, none I'm aware of.

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Are you sure about that cost? The average cost for a mage with 1 magic skill and 2 holy magic is more around 80-90 gold.

The way I calculated the cost for a 1/1/1/1/1/1 magic path was as follows:

First path, first level: 30 points.
Second path, first level: 20 points.
Third path, first level: 10 points.

These values are all from the Modding Guide on Illwinter's site. As stated in the original post, I am going to assume that further paths do _not_ depreciate like the first paths. From this:

Fourth path, first level: 10 points.
Fifth path, first level: 10 points.
Sixth path, first level: 10 points.

Add those all up, and you get 90g. Multiply this by the probability of getting a Master of the Five Elements with this (0.375), and you get 33.75. I then calculated the value of a 2/1/1/1/1 magic path, as follows:

First path, second level: 90 points.
Second path, first level: 20 points.
Third path, first level: 10 points.
Fourth path, first level: 10 points.
Fifth path, first level: 10 points.

This comes to 140 points. If you multiply this value by the probability of getting a Master of the Five Elements with those magic paths (0.625), you get 87.5.

Now, if we add together the 87.5 and the 33.75, we get a total of 121.25. This is the magic path cost for a mage with 5 paths at 1, plus 1 random pick. Add to this the cost for Holy-2 (20), and the base cost for the commander (30), and you will get the total calculated cost for a Master of the Five Elements.

121.25 + 20 + 30 = 171.25

This is not its actual cost (190). I'm not exactly sure what is causing the increase in cost, but I have my ideas.

I am sorry if what I posted before was confusing. I'm not that good at explaining myself. Of course, this is all academic if the Master of the Five Elements, as is listed in the unit spreadsheet can only get an Elemental pick.

Note that if the random is restricted to an Elemental pick, the cost of the magic path increases.

Are there any problems that people can point out with my math? As I said before, I'm doing this through a rather brute force approach to the probabilities, and since this is involving a lot of arithmetic, I may be making silly errors.

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
Very likely. I've seen 1-1-1-1, 2-1-1, 2-2 and 3-1, although I'm not sure I've ever seen an all-elemental or an all-sorcery. So it's either 4 x 1? or 1Elem + 1Sorc + 2 x 1?.

Thank you. This helps...

If you're looking for hidden weaknesses in the Circle Master that would explain his low cost, he hasn't any - at least, none I'm aware of.

All right... because it's shockingly low.

One other question. Can anyone confirm whether or not the Galderman's random picks can be the same? I know that when I've played Mitgard, I've never seen the Galderman get 2 in the same path for his randoms.

The reason that the Circle Mage has such low cost for the paths is because it is a rare site that is hard to find.

You have to take that into account.

Look at Celestial Master's for a cost estimate of what you are doing for Randoms.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Scott Hebert:
The way I calculated the cost for a 1/1/1/1/1/1 magic path was as follows:

I understand your methodology, but you should realize that it will fail on just about every mage that has only one point of magic. This is especially true for the holy-2 mages with one skill point. The theurg acolyte is a perfect example. He has 1 astral, two holy, and costs 90 gold. Some other examples are the Mictlan priest(BHH-80), the Serpent Acolyte(NHH-80), the Shaman(NS-110), the Master of the way (W?-100) and so on.

[Scott Hebert]

Here is the list of those mages in the game whose calculated gold values are different than their actual gold values. Note this assumes a 30g base cost for the commander. For some commanders (Vanheim and Jotunheim in particular), this obviously will skew the data. For those whose actual cost is over their calculated cost, I will at some point make a list of how much the 'base' commander would cost, with no magic.

The following gives a ratio of how close the two values are to each other. If the value is under 1, the actual value is lower than the calculated value. If the value is over 1, the actual value is higher than the calculated value. If anyone is interested in the raw values, I can also post those.

If a Commander is not listed, that means either that their listed cost is equal to their calculated cost, or there was not sufficient information to make the determination.

Something else that has been ignored is factoring in Sacred. There are only two examples where the listed 50% increase would make the data make more sense, and there are numerous examples where the data makes much less sense if this is taken into account. When it is noted that the direction in the Modding Guidelines is for sacred _units_, not necessarily commanders, I believe that Sacred on a commander does not change its value.

Amber Clan Mage: 0.94
Amber Clan Priest: 0.9
Asmeg Jarl: 1.14
Dwarven Smith: 0.88
Jade Sorceress: 0.98
Shaman: 1.38
Troll King: 0.83
Vaetti Hag: 0.92
Adepts of any of the 3 Orders: 0.89
Alchemist: 3.33
Azure Mage: 0.83
Circle Master: 0.56
Conjurer: 0.75
Enchantress(N###): 1.19
Enchantress(NN##): 1.27
Fire Lord: 1.67
Gnome: 0.97
Ice Druid: 1.29
Illusionist: 0.92
Lore Master: 1.05
Navigator: 2.25
Sage: 1.33
Sea Father: 1.21
Shadow Seer: 0.88
Sorcerer(Indep): 1.03
Sorceress(FE): 1.04
Sorceress(AA): 0.89
Warrior Mage: 1.67
Witch: 0.83
Anathemant Dragon: 1.09
Anathemant Salamander: 1.18
Warlock: 1.01
Warlock Apprentice: 1.07
Newt: 1.13
Sanguine Acolyte: 1.25
Sanguine Anathemant: 1.16
Demonbred: 1.13
Mystic: 0.99
Astrologer: 0.88
Consort: 1.6
Coral Queen: 1.28
Deep Seer: 0.75
King of the Deep: 1.05
Empoisoner: 1.38
Hierodule: 0.8
High Priest of C'tis: 1.5
Lizard King: 1.56
Keeper of the Tombs: 1.1
Sauromancer(F): 0.82
Marshmaster: 1.03
Sauromancer(N): 0.82
Shaman: 1.38
Harab Elder: 0.9
High Seraph: 0.6
Seraph(non-RoR): 0.71
Seraphine: 1.13
Ermorian Cultist: 0.9
Grand Thaumaturg: 0.89
Jotun Gode: 2.5
Jotun Skratti: 1.08
Vaetti Hag: 0.92
Gygja: 1.38
Niefel Jarl: 1.72
Norna: 1.16
Black Sorcerer: 1.17
Ear of the Lord: 1.4
Sorcerer: 1.09
Sorceress: 1.22
Witch Doctor: 0.89
Voice of the Lord: 1.13
Bard: 1.25
Monk: 0.6
Sidhe Champion: 1.4
Sidhe Lord: 1.47
Tuatha: 1.05
Crone of Avalon: 0.79
Daughter of Avalon: 0.67
Mother of Avalon: 0.93
Paladin: 2.6
Chartmaker: 1.13
Missionary: 1.2
Royal Navigator: 0.99
Goetic Master: 0.95
Grand Master: 0.79
Witch Hunter: 0.94
Friar: 0.8
Initiate: 1.08
Priest King: 1.09
Black Dryad: 1.13
Panic Apostate: 1.33
Dryad(HH): 1.38
Pan (NEra): 1.46
Centaur Hierophant: 1.6
Pan (base): 1.21
Pandemoniac: 1.33
Serpent Priest: 0.79
Arch Theurg: 0.9
Battle Deacon: 1.8
Theurg: 0.75
Theurg Acolyte: 1.13
Star Child: 1.42
Starspawn(HHH): 1.11
Starspawn: 1.15
Master of the Way: 0.95
Master of the Dead: 0.94
Celestial Master(S&A): 0.94
Master of the 5 Elements: 1.06
Minister of Rituals: 1.25
Celestial Master(base): 1.05
Illuminated One: 1.33
Member of the Second Tier: 1.14
Black Acolyte: 0.8
Black Priest: 1.04
Vanherse: 2
Vanjarl: 1.47
Hangadrott: 1.19
Galderman: 0.98
Dwarven Smith: 0.88
Vanadrott: 1.69

There ya go.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Scott Hebert:

quote:

---

If you're looking for hidden weaknesses in the Circle Master that would explain his low cost, he hasn't any - at least, none I'm aware of.

All right... because it's shockingly low.

---

Mages are sometimes greedy, sometimes not. Eg, look at the costs and descriptions of Alchemists (300 gp) or Adepts of Pyriphlegeton (180 gp) - both come with only 3 magic picks. Obviously there's more than pure mathematic formulas at work.

Or rarity - eg, the standard Seraph in both Caelum themes. 100 gp -> 140 gp. Otherwise same stats.

One other question. Can anyone confirm whether or not the Galderman's random picks can be the same?

They can't. One is elemental magic, one is sorcery.

[Vicious Love]

Hate to distract from the discussion(I applaud the effort, incidentally. You're even more pedantic than I, and you've clearly put plenty of work into this), but I just have to know:
Are these calculations for ExaltedMOD, or have you got some other MOD in mind, one with hedge mages in it?
I have a soft spot for hedge mages, I do. Masters of the miscellaneous and ineffectual.
[/Interruption]

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
I understand your methodology, but you should realize that it will fail on just about every mage that has only one point of magic. This is especially true for the holy-2 mages with one skill point. The theurg acolyte is a perfect example. He has 1 astral, two holy, and costs 90 gold. Some other examples are the Mictlan priest(BHH-80), the Serpent Acolyte(NHH-80), the Shaman(NS-110), the Master of the way (W?-100) and so on.

Erm... maybe I haven't explained myself clearly again. I am sorry.

To take the theurg acolyte:

Commander: 30
Astral 1 Magic: 30
Holy 2: 20
That comes to 80g. That is his calculated cost. His actual cost is 90g.

Serpent Acolyte:

Commander: 30
Nature 1 Magic: 30
Holy 2: 20
That comes to 80g (again). That is his calculated cost, which equals his actual cost.

The Shaman:

Commander: 30
Nature 1 Magic: 30
Astral 1 Magic: 20

That comes to 80g (again). This is his calculated cost. His actual cost is 110g.

The Mictlan Priest is the same as the Serpent Priest, as far as the pricing rubric is concerned. Therefore, his calculated price is equal to his actual price.

The Master of the Way is a little trickier, because he has a random selection. He is calculated as follows:

Commander: 30
Holy-2: 20
Magic Path:
1/8 of the time, he is a WW mage. WW costs 90. 1/8 times 90 is 11.25
7/8 of the time, he is a W(~W) mage. W(~W) costs 50. 7/8 times 50 is 43.75.
Totaling the magic path cost comes to 55.
Total: 105. 105 is his calculated cost, and 100 is his actual cost.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how my methodology is failing with the above examples. Could you explain perhaps a bit better so that I may understand?

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
Mages are sometimes greedy, sometimes not. Eg, look at the costs and descriptions of Alchemists (300 gp) or Adepts of Pyriphlegeton (180 gp) - both come with only 3 magic picks. Obviously there's more than pure mathematic formulas at work.

While the Alchemist is obvious an outlier, I think it is rather obvious why. The Adept of Pyriphlegeton is actually priced exactly correctly, according to the modding guidelines.

And yes, that means that SS### is worth the same as FFF, in the designers' minds.

Or rarity - eg, the standard Seraph in both Caelum themes. 100 gp -> 140 gp. Otherwise same stats.

The 140g is the 'correct' price for a 2/1 mage. I have yet to understand why Caelum's mages are so cheap.

They can't. One is elemental magic, one is sorcery.

Ah, That means my calculation for the Galderman is slightly off. You'd think with 20 examples I'd see that pattern...