Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?

Originally posted by Blitz:
All VQ defenders: please submit a list of reasons why the Cyclops, Titan, Shedu, Lord of the Desert Sun, Lord of the Gates, Son of the Sea, Lord of the Wild, or Lord of the Night are superior to the Vampire Queen. Please stop with the "She's not overpowered" arguments and explain why all these 125-150 point chassis are superior. When you are done explaining this, perhaps I will concede ground. All these chassis are not broken. She is broken.

So are you going to ignore the Natarajah, Carrion Dragon, All-Father, Ghost King, Prince of Death, Neried, Dagon, Saurolich, Son of Niefel, Void Lord?

All of these Chassis can be designed and equipped that will kill a VQ and have plenty of room to spare. Not to mention the ones you already mentioned.

How? Take 380 of your points, and put them into them where you'd like, research what you'd like and equip them both. Then have them fight.

Not to mention that each one can expand just as easily as a VQ. Hell, even a 9F Dragon can expand from Turn2 on. You just have to know what you are doing.

[calmon]

Originally posted by Zen:
You just have to know what you are doing.

Sure. But if you know what you doing and want to play a battlecharacter the VQ is in most cases simple the best choice.

She just needs some modification like higher cost for additional magic path and maybe losing 1 of her skills and she is ballanced.

[ May 07, 2004, 08:16: Message edited by: calmon ]

Originally posted by calmon:
Sure. But if you know what you doing VQ is in most cases the best choice. Whats so difficult to understand?

Because the game isn't won just by having a pretender who can kill in 1 place at 1 time. I know what I'm doing and in most cases the VQ is not the best choice. Why? Because she is only one unit that slowly can breed lesser units. Very decent; yes, but hardly a game winner. The game is won on many different levels, not the least of which is initial expansion, correct use of SC's, multiple strategies, suprise, preemptive strikes, diplomacy, backstabbing, overcompensation, luck, initial postition and many other factors, player morale (this is where the futility of fighting a VQ is won, for those who can't get past it). It's not just building one badass unit, your initial Design points dictate how you are going to play your game and if you sink them all into one slivered aspect, you can be beaten on 4 others.

If someone could just build a VQ and win the game, then they would do so and noone would win who didn't have a VQ. Unfortunately, you can build a VQ and lose the game far more often than you can win it.

[ May 07, 2004, 08:20: Message edited by: Zen ]

[calmon]

If someone could just build a VQ and win the game, then they would do so. Unfortunately, you can build a VQ and lose the game far more often than you can win it.

Thats not the point! The world isn't black and white. VQ makes your chances just a little better then other pretenders.

Be sure. I'm not a player who doesn't know how to handle VQ in combat. I only want a little (each little count) more ballanced game.

[ May 07, 2004, 08:21: Message edited by: calmon ]

Originally posted by calmon:
Thats not the point! The world isn't black and white. VQ makes your chances just a little better then other pretenders.

So anyone who wins with a Blessing Strategy wins because they made one with a VQ? Anyone who won a game based without a VQ did it on a 'longshot'?

[archaeolept]

Originally posted by Zen:

quote:

---

Originally posted by calmon:
Thats not the point! The world isn't black and white. VQ makes your chances just a little better then other pretenders.

So anyone who wins with a Blessing Strategy wins because they made one with a VQ? Anyone who won a game based without a VQ did it on a 'longshot'?

---

lol. that doesn't follow in the least. you don't happen to be working for Wolfowitz and Feith are you?



seriously, what sort of defintion of balance are you working from?

[ May 07, 2004, 08:33: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

Originally posted by archaeolept:
lol. that doesn't follow in the least. you don't happen to be working for Wolfowitz and Feith do you?

It follows exactly. How about we take a direct; from Combat Pretender, to Combat Pretender stance.

Anyone who has played a Combat Oriented Earth 3 Natarajah who has miraculously (I know it's a stretch) won when playing in a game with a VQ, is a longshot? That VQ should have given that player the edge to win under any circumstances? Or at the very least against a less point intensive design on a comprable chassis?

[Tris]

Norfleet has just made what I reckon to be the first sound and convincing arguement against the VQ being overpowered.

Given that I had become slightly irritated with constant defenses of "It's not overpowered you are all Newbies" and "It's not overpowered, there are counters" this is no mean feat

The arguement: That an SC VQ is not just 110 points. It is closer to 400 or 500 points.

This doesn't mean the VQ is not overpowered, but it is a good answer to the "but she only costs 110 points" arguements.

Norfleet: If you were playing against an evil twin, who would destroy the world and everything you hold dear if he beat you, and you KNEW he would play the temple/castling strategy, how would you play to beat him?

(of course, you don't have to answer, as presumably doing so would mean many people reading this could counter your favourite strategy )

(finally as an aside "Illwinter places a high value on X" is entirely irrelevant if we are talking about balance. If Illwinter decided immortal chassis should be free, to represent the fact they have less far to go to become true gods that would not mean free immortal chassis would be balanced)

[calmon]

Originally posted by Zen:
So anyone who wins with a Blessing Strategy wins because they made one with a VQ? Anyone who won a game based without a VQ did it on a 'longshot'?

I don't give the VQ a importance like that.

Please understand. I like just a little modifications to her.

...and i'm bored to see Hall of Fames like that:


Name.........Nation........Kills........Exp
Lysindia.....Caelum..........233.........65
Evelyn.......Mictlan.........199.........45
Francisca....Abysia..........178.........46
Lady Dark....Emor............150.........42
Buffy........Man.............102.........40


I do more like the game when people chose different characters and they are more or less balanced (not euqal!)

[ May 07, 2004, 08:41: Message edited by: calmon ]

[archaeolept]

I really can barely think of how to respond.

how does winning against a vampire queen imply balance? Vampire queens could be unbalanced (though the real interest/concern to me has to do w/ the full combo strat, not the VQ especially) and yet still be posssible to beat.

unless you take unbalanced as synonymous w/ "impossible to defeat"??? which would be a severe error in semantics.

edit: ++lol

thanks for the dictionary defintion and all, but
are you saying that the VQ is balanced because you can use her as a weight?

seriously, i think most people here are capable of looking up a word in a dictionary, but in the context of this game, what do you take "balance" as meaning?

[ May 07, 2004, 08:40: Message edited by: archaeolept ]