Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Vynd:
why Rabe shouldn't say he thinks the VQ is "broken" and needs to be "fixed." That's hardly what I consider offensive language. I have trouble believing that the devs are as overly sensitive to criticism as you're portraying them to be.

His isnt so bad. Not as bad as some.

Its more the total impression Im feeling. But you are probably right. It shouldnt matter how things are worded. Im sure any programmer would be willing to go back and look at something no matter how its referred to them. I dont think I would and I havent put nearly as much work in the stuff I program. But Im probably just a cranky "old guy"

[ May 06, 2004, 21:18: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[Reverend Zombie]

Originally posted by calmon:
Even if i only see the fun factor in a mp game (fun its great for me too) i'm bored to see so much VQs. I want some diversity!

There's a difference between being bored because everyone is using something they think is uber, and that thing actually being uber.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by calmon:

quote:

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To be truthful Ive only found VQ to be fun to play with a couple of nations. I know fun-to-play isnt the deciding factor in some peoples games, especially multiplayer, but it means that for me the game isnt broke by her. Im still looking at it though.

Even if i only see the fun factor in a mp game (fun its great for me too) i'm bored to see so much VQs. I want some diversity! This can only be reached by balance. Rabelais is like lot of here a very good analyst and sees the advantages in the multifunctional VP-chassis. He shoudn't be blamed for that.

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Your right, he shouldnt. We need testers who can find such things. And we should ask the devs to look into it. And even make some suggestions on how it might be balanced abit. Im all for it.

[Norfleet]

Well, the ultimate question about VQs is this:

Do VQs, independently of their players, win games? Does choosing the VQ mean you are far more likely to win against anyone who does NOT choose one, independently of how good you are, or how good he is? If so, then VQs would definitely be unbalanced.

I don't think this is actually the case, however. The opinions of noted beta testers like Zen and Jasper support this.

Now, we consider diversity: Why are there so many VQs in the game....and why does it continue even though ultimately, these aspiring VQs are inevitably laid to burnination by somebody else?

The answer seems fairly simple: As the VQ is generally used as an SC chassis, it tends to be the most visible symbol of asskicking. When a VQ destroys your army, you think "Wow. Those things are mean." They're also available to many nations(vampires being a legend in many different cultures). As such, it is very easy to reach for the thing which Last handed your *** to you.

As a result, the vast majority of VQs are not, in fact, being operated because the player in question has evaluated its individual merits and drawbacks in relation to the strategy he wants to play, but because he saw it/heard about it, and thought it was cool.

Unfortunately, this is an entirely illusory, and unavoidable, effect. People are inherently drawn to stories of success and wish to emulate it: Witness the evolution of cookie-cutter character building in RPGs: Regardless of whether it's the character that's right for the player's strategy, people want these cookie-cutter formulas, perhaps because they are new and know no better.

I've heard of this myself: People, who have no idea what they really want, will take this high-priced chassis, and proceed to do something completely useless with it, like turning it into an artillery caster. Why did they even *PICK* a VQ for that? You certainly can't get a terribly good blessing with one, so it's not a good choice if you wanted to play a 9-bless.

I chalk this up entirely to imitation, particularly of something people have heard of or observed first hand. If somebody's playing a water blessing, or a fire blessing, a player isn't likely going to see this in action directly, because the pretender is not an in-your-face item. If your army gets wiped out by a VQ, though....you're going to see it unfold. You're going to think, "Wow." (or something less complimentary). If you're a newbie and don't know any better, you're going to think, "I want one of those."

Nevermind that it may not be suitable for your strategy. If anything, I expect that VQ usage will actually taper off as newbies mature into veterans and find their own niche. However, newbies will newbies.

[ May 06, 2004, 21:36: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[calmon]

Originally posted by Reverend Zombie:
There's a difference between being bored because everyone is using something they think is uber, and that thing actually being uber.

"Everyone" is using her because she is (far) the best SC in game in moment. Immortal, flying (fast) and stealthy.

She is good at the start of a game, because she can fight armies alone without fearing dead. She stops invading armies more or less easily in own dominion. If she fear an attack she just use 'hide' to prevent any (even teleport) battles. In lategame power and magic power - wish boost counts double and more for an immortal character (this can be a wished VQ too). Its better to invest in immortals then in others. Some more points are her ethereality, good resistants, regeneration, free vampires and her complete armable body. She is the chasis with most combinations of good attributes.

[ May 06, 2004, 23:41: Message edited by: calmon ]

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Well, the ultimate question about VQs is this:

Do VQs, independently of their players, win games? Does choosing the VQ mean you are far more likely to win against anyone who does NOT choose one, independently of how good you are, or how good he is? If so, then VQs would definitely be unbalanced.
....

Nah, these all are totally irrelivent questions. The only question that need to be asked, is if VQ significantly more powerfull SC than other pretenders in MP games? If yes, than perhaps it should be toned down a little (but IMHO not too much, the concept of VQ is cool ). If not, than it should be left alone. The considerations "If VQ enough to win the game by itself, blah-blah-blah" are obviously irrelivent to the issue of balance.

[Slygar]

Just gotta say it: This whole arguement seems so ridiculous. I mean, why would we need to submit success data to determine if the VQ is actually overpowered? I mean, just look at it, and compare it to any other same-priced pretender. Even ones that cost more dont compare (father of serpents, for example.) And you can't forget the free vampires, which is one of my favorite things about the VQ when I play it (I find them very useful as a rearstrike force, once there are 20+ of them.. especially against AI. Ethereal + Immortal = fun)

I saw it right away, my first game of Dom ii was Abysia with a VQ. I can't imagine that there are people that actually think it is balanced, although fun to play, I admit.

[Jondifool]

Now that was a good reply Norfolk. ( must say I don't like the title of this topic)

if I understands you correct
The Vampire Queens "power" lays in the easyness she is turned into a cockie cutter pretender!

you could be right ( i am not experienced enough to say). But I still see a problem with her then.

She is to much of a challange for a newbie to counter! (though some answers finally does shows up).

this Cockie cutter might be unavoidble, but certainly not fortunate! The Vampire Queen is a newbie basher. And as a newbie I am ready to take my beatings and learn this game, but I don't look forward to get beaten by a cookie cutter!

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Slygar:
Just gotta say it: This whole arguement seems so ridiculous. I mean, why would we need to submit success data to determine if the VQ is actually overpowered? I mean, just look at it, and compare it to any other same-priced pretender. Even ones that cost more dont compare (father of serpents, for example.) And you can't forget the free vampires, which is one of my favorite things about the VQ when I play it (I find them very useful as a rearstrike force, once there are 20+ of them.. especially against AI. Ethereal + Immortal = fun)

I saw it right away, my first game of Dom ii was Abysia with a VQ. I can't imagine that there are people that actually think it is balanced, although fun to play, I admit.

But why does a Super Combat god have to be nerfed? This isnt Immortal Kombat. Does that mean that the super rainbow is next? or the best god for harassment? support? defense?

No one is doubting that she is high in the combat god Category but will lowering her help? And we seem to still be seeing more agreement on her faults then suggestions on what to do. What changes wont put the Ghost King next on the list? As a combat god you cant make her equal to Wyrm or Nataraja

[Kel]

The sad part is the players don't even agree on what 'over-powered' means.

Some people think over-powered means she is above the power average.

Some people think that if she isn't invincible, she isn't over-powered.

No-one wants to use each others language so everyone goes in circles, repeating themselves. Perhaps people need to agree on definitions before they do anything.

- Kel