Tien Chi Default

[tinkthank]

I'm confused about the default Version of Tien Chi. My confusion was instigated by my recent discovery that there is a Celestial Gardener as a national summoning spell.
Admittedly, I had not played the default Version much -- but still it took me over a month to even recognize that this spell *existed*. I don't want to fault the documentation here, but rather the concept:
- why make a national summons which quite conceivably could *never* be used in the course of an entire game? Yes, it took me *that* long to get a CM with a random earth pick. Had I not chosen to cast a ritual spell with that mage, and had I been even less attentive than normal, I might not even have noticed that spell existing.
Fine, now I know how it works. Just like the other celestial summoning spell, the dual-air 1 astral. This is also a spell which requires great luck to even be able to cast. Either you must get lucky to use it (random air pick) or you need to design a god around casting these spells (which, by the way, is not encouraged by the misleading (well: downright false) "flavor text", in which the summons are described as being "only" summonable by the CMs, which is not the case). That seems really very bizarre.

If it is purely a question of balance, why not make them available to celestial masters and more expensive? (*IF* it is a question of balance.) Or make them weaker. Otherwise, I can't see why the horse servants should require 2 air, nor why the gardeners should require a path that the national mages rarely get.

My plea for 2.10: Rehaul the celestial summoning to make it available to all CMs.

[Kristoffer O]

>Either you must get lucky to use it (random air pick) or you need to design a god around casting these spells (which, by the way, is not encouraged by the misleading (well: downright false) "flavor text", in which the summons are described as being "only" summonable by the CMs, which is not the case). That seems really very bizarre.

Actually it's more of a "imperative text" than a "flavor text". It does not fit to have other mages summon them. If you read the desctription you might get a feel for what is right and stop using other mages to summon the servants

>If it is purely a question of balance, why not make them available to celestial masters and more expensive? (*IF* it is a question of balance.) Or make them weaker. Otherwise, I can't see why the horse servants should require 2 air, nor why the gardeners should require a path that the national mages rarely get.

It is a special thing and a flavor thing. Gardeners and servants poke the earth in the heavenly gardens. Celestial Soldiers defend the heavenly abodes in the clouds.

The special thing is almost a balance thing but not entirely so. Celestial masters are rarely into earth (a flavor thing). We didn''t want to give them earth, but we wanted the servants to be earth based. The Soldiers are very powerful and should not be easier to summon. Thus the current solution. It also fits that you only summon one gardener and that you rarely build armies around them. Unfortunately (as I'm very fond of them) they become rare.

There should not be any problems with the soldiers as they cost more. When you get the air pick you might not be able to cast the spell anyway.

[tinkthank]

Thanks for the very prompt and thorough reply. You make your position very clear -- merci!

I happen not to share your opinion, but that is neither here nor there. What I like about S&A is that the celestial summons are available to the CMs, even if you wont always cast for them (because of gem cost, because you only get 1, etc.) It is just a shame that you cant really use your national summons unless you get lucky, and because of the somewhat slim documentation on the nations, you might not even know that gardeners exist.

Ah well thanks anyhow.

[Peter Ebbesen]

You do not need to get lucky to use the Celestial Soldiers - you just need to empower any Celestial Master to air 2 or (preferably) to construct a Winged Helmet or a Bag of Wind, which requires construction 4.

Hardly onerous.

It does mean that the use of Celestial Soldiers is more of a mid- and end- game tactic than an early-game tactic, but that is quite fine with me.

If you get lucky with magic sites (and T'ien C'hi is one of the best site-searching nations in the game), you can build entire armies around Celestial Soldiers in the mid-game. Cost-wise, there are few better summons in the game.

[Kristoffer O]

S&A is supposed to be more magical. The demons reflect this.

[jaif]

Noob question: what line are these spells located in? Actually, more broadly is there a reference somewhere for all national spells? Or even better, a blow-by-blow description of all the nations so I don't have to start a new game with each new nation/theme to figure them out?

-Jeff

[Sly Frog]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:
If you get lucky with magic sites (and T'ien C'hi is one of the best site-searching nations in the game), you can build entire armies around Celestial Soldiers in the mid-game. Cost-wise, there are few better summons in the game.

Yes, I just finished up a single player game with Ulm, and T'ien C'hi was the Last guy I took out. In each of my single player games, T'ien C'hi really went nowhere (only expanded to about 3 or 4 provinces, but was able to field these huge armies of forces, like Celestial Soldiers, that I had no idea how to crack. Ulm heavy infantry does nothing to them, and they really don't seem to have any weaknesses based on their stats.

[PvK]

I got overrun by an AI playing Tien'Chi once. I was Arcoscephale with a Natajara combat pretender, and they had a Ghost King with a bunch of celestial summons. Stormed right through my home province pretty early on.

Jaif, there are national spells listed at the end of the manual, but these Tien'Chi ones don't seem to be there. There are also national spells which come pre-researched for some nations, but which other nations can eventually research - I don't know if those are documented anywhere, and they can be easy not to notice that you've got them automatically and not as a result of your research.

PvK

[rabelais]

Speaking of tien Chi, I'm on turn 18 of a multiplayer game with luck +3 and I have gotten ZERO heros.

Is this a bug, or am I just insanely unlucky?


Rabe the Coward Magnet

[ywl]

Another question about Tien Chi: does anybody else feel that Spring & Autumn theme is actually stronger than the default?

You lose the imperial archers and crossbowmen in S&A. They're powerful but not nonreplacable. The heavy mounted archers are wonderful on paper but they aren't very practical. In return, you get among the best mages in the game, Masters of the Five Elements and the flying Celestial Masters. Your infantries are all crappy but they're usable if supported up by your mages. More importantly, you still have the composite bow archers as your vehicle for early expansion. You even have access to "Dispossessed Spirits" for free. They can help your mediocre infantry a lot in battle.

Default theme of Tien Chi actually feels weak with the vulnerability of their Celestial Masters to Magic Duel. Master of the Way is a good buy but with only one Water and one random, they're hard to use in battle - 2 water and a random or 1 water, 1 nature and 1 random will be better.