Forging Observations

[aldiss2]

After reading the earlier question I felt like seeing how the costs were done.

Test Item was a
Robe of Invulnerability - base 80 earth gems


cyclops (0% Bonus) 80
cyclops w/ Dwarven Hammer (25% Bonus) 60
cyclops w/ Hammer of the Forge Lord (50% Bonus) 40

black priest (25% Bonus) 60
black priest w/ Dwarven Hammer (50% Bonus) 40
black priest w/ Hammer of the Forge Lord (75% Bonus) 20


Now we move them over to "The Steel Ovens" (20% Construction Bonus)
The "Ancient Forge" and the "Banefire Forge" each have a 20% bonus as well

cyclops (0% Bonus) 64
cyclops w/ Dwarven Hammer (25% Bonus) 44
cyclops w/ Hammer of the Forge Lord (50% Bonus) 24

black priest (25% Bonus) 44
black priest w/ Dwarven Hammer (50% Bonus) 24
black priest w/ Hammer of the Forge Lord (75% Bonus) 16

The formula seems to be
Cost = [Base Cost]
- Caster Bonus (Intrinsic Bonus + Item Bonus) * Base Cost
- Site Bonus * Base Cost


We now cast Forge of Ancients

cyclops (0% Bonus) 40
cyclops w/ Dwarven Hammer (25% Bonus) 30
cyclops w/ Hammer of the Forge Lord (50% Bonus) 20

black priest (25% Bonus) 30
black priest w/ Dwarven Hammer (50% Bonus) 20
black priest w/ Hammer of the Forge Lord (75% Bonus) 10


Now we move them over to "The Steel Ovens" (20% Construction Bonus)
The "Ancient Forge" and the "Banefire Forge" each have a 20% bonus as well

cyclops (0% Bonus) 32
cyclops w/ Dwarven Hammer (25% Bonus) 22
cyclops w/ Hammer of the Forge Lord (50% Bonus) 12

black priest (25% Bonus) 22
black priest w/ Dwarven Hammer (50% Bonus) 12
black priest w/ Hammer of the Forge Lord (75% Bonus) 8


The formula is now:
1) If FoA is Active, BaseCost=BaseCost/2
2) Cost = [Base Cost]
- Caster Bonus (Intrinsic Bonus + Item Bonus) * Base Cost
- Site Bonus * Base Cost


But then the weird stuff, it seems there are minimums (Notice that Last result)

All the following made using
black priest w/ Hammer of the Forge Lord
on "The Steel Ovens" while FoA is active
I'm just listing the earth gem costs

Item/Base/Cost
The Summit/40/4
Dwarven Hammer/20/2
Sword of Many Colors/40/4
Stinger/5/_0_
Smasher/10/1

So it seems the minimum cost is 10% of the initial base, but they round down so you get 5 gem items for free.

aldiss

[PhilD]

Originally posted by aldiss2:

The formula is now:
1) If FoA is Active, BaseCost=BaseCost/2
2) Cost = [Base Cost]
- Caster Bonus (Intrinsic Bonus + Item Bonus) * Base Cost
- Site Bonus * Base Cost

So it seems the minimum cost is 10% of the initial base, but they round down so you get 5 gem items for free.

aldiss

Interesting observations... so it looks like the Hammer on a Black Priest/Master Smith, with Forge of the Ancients, is close to the best you can do (80-gem items will cost 10, compared to the absolute minimum of 8).

Iron Faith really is better for this, with the random pick on Black Priests.

[Vger]

Hi,

I don't see a Nat forger listed. Nat can hold the Hammers of the Forge Lord and Cyclops. With FotA up I was getting terribly cheap items. (I don't remember the exact figures and I don't think I have the game anymore to check.) I just be interested to see if the Nat would be the cheapest.


Ciao,
V'ger gone

[Gandalf Parker]

Excellent testing. Thanks. Testing is an area Im terrible at.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Vger:
Hi,

I don't see a Nat forger listed. Nat can hold the Hammers of the Forge Lord and Cyclops. With FotA up I was getting terribly cheap items. (I don't remember the exact figures and I don't think I have the game anymore to check.) I just be interested to see if the Nat would be the cheapest.

I think the cheapest would be a 97.5% reduction: FotA, Black Priest/Smith wielding the Hammer of the Forge Lord at a 20% construction site like Steel Ovens:
FotA: 50% base cost
HotFL: 50%
Black Priest: 25%
Site: 20%

A Nataraja with Dwarven Hammer + HotFL would be the same as a Smith/Black Priest with HotFL, since the Nataraja loses the inherent 25% but gains it back by wielding the dwarven hammer.

[PhilD]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I think the cheapest would be a 97.5% reduction: FotA, Black Priest/Smith wielding the Hammer of the Forge Lord at a 20% construction site like Steel Ovens:
FotA: 50% base cost
HotFL: 50%
Black Priest: 25%
Site: 20%

A Nataraja with Dwarven Hammer + HotFL would be the same as a Smith/Black Priest with HotFL, since the Nataraja loses the inherent 25% but gains it back by wielding the dwarven hammer.

It seems (from aldiss' tests) that there is a minimum of 10% of the base cost, so that getting 87.5% reduction as I do with my Forge/Hammer/MasterSmith is close to the absolute minimum (80-cost item for 10 instead of 8).

Hmm... what would you forge to fight Ermor in the sea? Assume access to large amounts of gems, and almost maxed out research (good summons would help, too, but I'm rather poor on water gems).

[aldiss2]

I foolishly ignored the multi armed critters,
happily you folks think of everything.

So here's more.

Seems the item bonuses stack

Again with our trusty Robe of Invuln for 80 earth gems

nataraja (0% Bonus) 80
nataraja w/ Dwarven Hammer (25% Bonus) 60
nataraja w/ Hammer of the Forge Lord (50% Bonus) 40
nataraja w/ HoF & DH (75% Bonus) 20
nataraja w/ HoF & Hammer of the Cyclops (100% Bonus) 16

That Last result looks interesting so I tried some more stuff at 100%
Dwarven Hammer/20/4
Marble Armor/10/2
Stinger/5/1

This seems to be telling us that the minimum is 20% of the base cost.

Moving on to "The Steel Ovens"

nataraja (0% Bonus) 64
nataraja w/ Dwarven Hammer (25% Bonus) 44
nataraja w/ Hammer of the Forge Lord (50% Bonus) 24
nataraja w/ HoF & DH (75% Bonus) 16
nataraja w/ HoF & Hammer of the Cyclops (100% Bonus) 16


After casting Forge of the Ancients

nataraja (0% Bonus) 40
nataraja w/ Dwarven Hammer (25% Bonus) 30
nataraja w/ Hammer of the Forge Lord (50% Bonus) 20
nataraja w/ HoF & DH (75% Bonus) 10
nataraja w/ HoF & Hammer of the Cyclops (100% Bonus) 8

some more stuff at 100% w/FoA
The Summit/40/4
Dwarven Hammer/20/2
Smasher/10/1
Stinger/5/0


On "The Steel Ovens"

nataraja (0% Bonus) 32
nataraja w/ Dwarven Hammer (25% Bonus) 22
nataraja w/ Hammer of the Forge Lord (50% Bonus) 12
nataraja w/ HoF & DH (75% Bonus) 8
nataraja w/ HoF & Hammer of the Cyclops (100% Bonus) 8

The numbers support the previous conclusion

1) If FoA is Active, BaseCost=BaseCost/2
2) Cost = [Base Cost]
- Caster Bonus (Intrinsic Bonus + Item Bonus) * Base Cost
- Site Bonus * Base Cost
3)MinimumCost=20% BaseCost
4) The actual cost you pay is the greater of the calculated Cost or the MinimumCost.


Note the minimum % is indeed 20% because when FoA is active we halve the BaseCost before we figure the other costs.

So how about checking the math and somebody restating it in an FAQ friendly way eh?

[Norfleet]

Sounds like you've hit on a more or less definitive measure. It meshes with all of the observed behavior I've seen.

One thing to note, is that, as far as I can tell, if you were to, by chance, find, say, the Steel Ovens AND the Ancient Forge, those bonusses will NOT stack. Could you maybe confirm this result?

[CharonJr]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Sounds like you've hit on a more or less definitive measure. It meshes with all of the observed behavior I've seen.

One thing to note, is that, as far as I can tell, if you were to, by chance, find, say, the Steel Ovens AND the Ancient Forge, those bonusses will NOT stack. Could you maybe confirm this result?

Hmm, if I understand the results correctly they don't stack, but FotA is applied before and in addition to any other reductions.

He lists the 80 robe being forged for 22 with a dwarven hammer while both FotA and Steel Ovens are active.

FotA: 80 / 2 = 40 (new Base Cost)
SO: 40 * 20% = 8
DH: 40 * 25% = 10

Cost: 40 - 8 - 10 = 22

CharonJr

[Arryn]

BTW, I'm sure this is not news to the old hands at Dom 2, but it was a pleasant discovery for me: when using the DH (and I presume other such forge-helpers), fractional costs round in favor of the caster.

In the case of forging a Clam of Pearls, the base cost of 10 is reduced by 25% or 2.5, which is rounded up to 3, so the new cost is 10-3=7. I had expecting 10-2=8.