Change request: Rescuing the Moloch From Whimpy Imps Inc.

[Peter Ebbesen]

On behalf of the Anxious Molochs For World Destruction (AMFWD), a gathering of Molochs who have suffered from the antics of Whimpy Imps Incorporated (WII), we bring you the following infomercial:

If ever any pretender seemed designed to be a Super Combatant, surely it is the Moloch. With flying, high attack, defense, protection, strength, and decent (but not super-high) hitpoints, the Moloch seems ideal for sending into the fray against province defense or even small armies (in SP ), yes the Moloch is surely "a powerful and mighty warrior, and imps will come to his aid in battle, and he will surely shatter the world unless"...

....His imps are killed making him flee, which means that, for all practical purposes, the imps are a liability. At 25 point cost over the Prince of Darkness, who has most of the strengths of the Moloch, most of the same weaknesses (save this one), equivalent magic level and dominion, and a cheaper path cost, the Moloch just does not cut it. (Exception: The cheapest fire 9 blessing you can get, but that just does not seem to fit the Moloch's theme)

And that is a crying shame. The idea of a Moloch with a retinue of imps going into battle without having to bring along slow-moving infantry fodder seems so very nice - it surely beats that of a Moloch who flees as soon as some whimpy imps get wiped out, especially considering that the Moloch has no problems scraping up some new imps for the NEXT battle. This suggests a very nice solution, really:

The AMFWD, having studied the auguries in the entrails of many thousands of imps, have reached the following recommendation:

• Increase the Moloch's cost from 75 to 90 points
• Give the Moloch, in addition to his starting retinue, a permanent "Lifelong Protection" effect

With the lifelong protection in effect, a few imps will be generated every single turn (VERY nicely fitting the Moloch's description), thus preventing the Moloch from every fleeing because of troops deserting him. (Which will of course create the "Overconfident Moloch" or "Deathwish" problem, but that is much more desirable than the current "Whimpy Moloch" problem)

The AMFWD sees an additional benefit in that more members of WII will be killed in the process.

EDIT: Several other suggestions from this thread

• Make the Moloch immortal ( ) and increase his cost from 75 to 125
• As a general rule, ignore units auto-summoned for purposes of determining routing

[ March 15, 2004, 12:34: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

[Argitoth]

I agree... ORRR you can make it somehow so autosummons like imps for Moloch or snakes for the Serpent King don't count toward moral/fleeing.

They shouldn't actually...

[ywl]

Actually, I think it would be nice if those pretenders who have auto-summon for battle could have the option to turn it off. Or they don't rout even after those units are all killed. Afterall, the auto-summon is supposed to be a benefit, rather than a liability. The routing when all the auto-summon units are slayed is more a quirk of the combat AI than a realistic simulation.

[Truper]

Very amusingly written For what its worth, the Moloch still makes a fine combattant in support of an army, but you're right, you can't use him on his own.

I'm not sure your proposed solution would work - it depends on the sequence of events in combat. If the rout check takes place before new creature generation, then the Moloch would still rout whenever all his Imps had been killed.

[Gandalf Parker]

You can put a "slave collar" on him. The disadvantage is that then he will never flee.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Truper

Very amusingly written For what its worth, the Moloch still makes a fine combattant in support of an army, but you're right, you can't use him on his own.

Indeed, but if what I wanted was fire support, there are both those that are cheaper and better amongst the pretenders, unless it is a flying support mage I need or I need an exceptionally high fire level to start with, which I likely will not, as I am probably going to invest considerably in air magic as well, since a support mage without precision is like a giraffe on rollerblades.

Now, if the Moloch had both the early game power that would seem intended AND the fire support utility later on, then it would, indeed, be a worthy pretender.

I'm not sure your proposed solution would work - it depends on the sequence of events in combat. If the rout check takes place before new creature generation, then the Moloch would still rout whenever all his Imps had been killed

I am pretty sure it will work. I tried something like it on a Demonbred by mistake.

...He was happily flying around with 35 devils and a truckload of magic items, including lifelong protection (for style!), when he inadvertently blundered into a very big army of some 300+ units including a pretender great mother and her 25 varied commander friends. My entire army was wiped out despite retreat possibilities, and though I cannot swear to it, it did look as if the Demonbred survived three rounds after the destruction of the Last devil, with new imps appearing at his side, while he happily bLasted away at point blank range with his magic.

Now, I may be mistaken, if some devil was tucked away in a corner of the battlefield amongst the 100+ surviving enemies where I did not notice it, but I think it would work.

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
You can put a "slave collar" on him. The disadvantage is that then he will never flee.

Indeed, by investing in blood I can put a cursed slave collar on my pretender [the inherent logic or lack of same of enslaving one's own mind to oneself is amusing to contemplate] or forge my own cursed lifelong protection by letting the Moloch make a deal with ANOTHER devil, probably some lower ranking flunky in the heirarchy of hell, who is unworthy of licking the Moloch's feet, to supply imps. There are any number of ways I can get around the issue after some 10 rounds or so....

...Which does not change the silliness of the situation one iota, namely that the one nasty pretender that screams Super Combatant, even in its job description, is useless as such in the early game, and expensive for its abilities to boot when you consider its extensive vulnerabilities.

Ah, well, I am incredibly biased on this - it is just so frustrating to bypass the Moloch for the Prince of Death or the Golden Naga every single time, based on projected impact, price, and utility.

[PvK]

Seems pretty obviously to be an AI bug that would be good to change, and I'd second the request, even though there are workarounds.

The one that comes to mind first, is give the Moloch some other troops. I assume is he has another squad that isn't dead, that he won't rout - no?

PvK

[Jasper]

A simple fix would be to give such creature generating leaders 50 morale when they enter a battle alone. This is effectively what happens for leaders that don't generate troops.

[velk]

I always gave Cthuzul the demonbred assassin a lifelong protection and he never appeared to be remotely fazed by having all his imps wiped out. Perhaps assassination attempts are different ?

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Jasper:
A simple fix would be to give such creature generating leaders 50 morale when they enter a battle alone. This is effectively what happens for leaders that don't generate troops.

That, or a "with your shield or on it" checkbox that has been proposed, that disables the auto-flee on loss of all troops for marked leaders. This would solve a lot of other things as well.