Blood?

[Keir Maxwell]

Blood magic was the big boogyman in dom1 with stories abounding of armies of dozens of Ice Devils. I never encountered this (MP games I was in ended too early) but I found plenty of scope for doing nasty things with blood even if it was just the contracts, which you don't have to do seperate research for, and multiple armies with half a dozen Ice Devils were not hard to come by. I'm glad that things have been toned down but always believed that rebalencing required improving early blood magic and that has not happened - the reverse with the weakening of contracts. Both high level (summons) and low level (contracts) blood magic has been weakened. Blood was only overpowered late game in dom1 and you had to survive to get there.

I really enjoyed blood magic in dom1 but find it very unappealing in dom2. Sure you can get some good results but the cost? I don't even think about it seriously with Pangaea as the price would be far too high to be worth channeling the resources from army building and conquest. When I have gone into blood with Abysia its been a case of ho hum these contracts sure are expensive and what exactly is the really useful summoning that I'm devoting so much time and effort to? No Pazzazu, only one Illearth, Ice Devils were never optimal for Abysia and are less so now (but still the most appealing), Fallen Angels and Arch Angels are seriously yawn material considering how little new they offer and how much work goes into geting them. Hmm lets see I could invest vast amounts of resource to get mages who can do what my existing ones can. Sure you can turn them into supercombatents but that has its own costs in terms of gems and forging time and they are only ok at it. Doesn't compare to being able to build Niefel Giants from turn1 and have my mages seperate. I can't honestly say to you that its worth bothering with blood as Abysia until late in the game (which may never come) as from my tests of it probably isn't worth the pain in the period of the game when most things are decided.

Low level blood battle magic is fairly weak by nature - blood spells tend to cost blood slaves which can't be provided early in a reliable manner (cost of ferrying slaves, hunting for slaves . . .). Low level blood summons are unappealing due to the mage time required to summon them. Contracts are not what the used to be.

I have read reports of single player blood experiments which sounded good but I'm not convinced these have much bearing on MP as MP demands one build an empire not sit on onces butt collecting blood slaves early. Sure you can get some nasty results latter in the game but thats true of all paths of magic and others provide goodies early and don't require the huge expenditure in time and effort to get the blood slaves.

Bloods big thing remains how many blood slaves you can get and its true that you can get alot. It costs you a heap of gold and time in which you could be pummeling your opponent into submission or they could be pummelling you. Sure its the big bonus of blood that you can put in lots of effort and get a heap of slaves but its not enough by itself. In the end slow strategies need something special or they just can't compete with the value of doing the obvious.

Maybe I'm missing something but for me the fun has been taken out of blood and I have found blood largely a waste of time in dom2 - better returns elsewhere. As someone who really enjoyed blood in Dom1 its sad to see how low it seems to have fallen.

I realise that many people will have done impressive things with blood magic playing single player in Dom2 - single player gives you time to explore viscous late game approaches. If thats all blood has to offer then thats sad for me.

Please Illwinter reconsider allowing more low level blood spells where you get more then one devil per casting. This would bring blood into things early for Mictlan and not long after for an Abysian player so inclined - as it should be. I also think the devil summoning contract need to be made cheaper and possibly a starting ritual for Abysia. I miss my devils - I really miss my devils.

cheers

Keir

[ December 27, 2003, 06:38: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

[Teraswaerto]

Lifelong protections for Slayers is the main attraction in getting some early blood slaves with Abysia. Other than that it doesn't seem to be worth it.

[apoger]

Hordes from Hell.

Blood magic is worth it just for this spell.

[Jasper]

Blood magic does take a while to get going, but seems well worth it to me. As Alex points out Hordes from Hell seems quite good, and the bigger summons still make very effective Super Combatants.

The biggest blow IMHO against blood magic is the brutal power of paralyze. I haven't played around with it much, but judging from other's reports it makes spending a bunch on a single unit a mistake, unless you're sure you won't face Astral magic in battle.

Pythium w/ blood magic on the Pretender seems like it would be quite powerfull. Pythium is effective to begin with, and add to that Super Combatants backed by Paralyze to counter opposing Super Combatants, and Magic Duel dominance to counter opposing Paralyzers.

[Gandalf Parker]

Hellbind Heart. One of my Favorites. A double-shammy. Remove a major commander from them causing all of that commanders troops to flee the field. AND add a commander to you, with all his equipment/gems. Adding a seasoned Caelum commander to Jotunheim really touches up an army. Or Ulm snagging an Arcos mage.

Safer if some with something like "Wind Ride".
Extra bonuses if it can be done by an assassin.
Also can be used for trading units between allies.

[ December 27, 2003, 14:53: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[Truper]

Sigh. Ice Devils sure aren't what they used to be. Ironic MP story:

I was playing Vanheim, and the big nasty power in the game was Pythium. I thought Blood might be my trump card to even things up a bit. One of the maps has a 4 province sea - I was on one side and Pythium was on the other. I thought taking the sea would not only give me some much-needed income, but provide considerable flexibility in where I could strike. I remebered from Dom1 that one ID could deal with any number of Tritons properly equipped. So I prepared his kit: Wraith Sword, Chainmail of Displacement, and Amulet of Antimagic. I contracted with another player to get a snake ring (2nd sigh - sometime in the 40s and I still had no one with a random in nature). So I finally got all that and the 55 slaves together, summoned the bad boy... and he had no hand slots! No Wraith Sword for him. He managed to take the 1st sea province I sent him into anyway, but lost an eye doing so - never would have happened could he but wield the sword. He took one other sea province, but died trying to take the 3rd - though in between, he did help me kill a Queen of Elemental Air, so I did get some good use out of him.

Next, I thought I'd try a Succubus. She was loads of fun to use, but never seduced a single commander, preferring always to simply kill them. I'm guessing from Kristoffer's comments in another thread, my experience in this game, and a little single player experience, that Succubi will refuse to seduce mages, and that their taste inclines to "leaders". Ah well. At least she made a good recipient for the Wraith Sword I'd forged.

A bit later, I decided to go for another Ice Devil. This one came with the usual 3 in Water, but also 2 in Astral - not much use against Pythium. I never even dared to send him out in what little remained of the game - he became a very expensive researcher.

Ice Devils sure aren't what they used to be...

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by apoger:
Hordes from Hell.

Blood magic is worth it just for this spell.

I've heard you say this a couple of times but I really have to ask why? Lvl 5 spell for a bunch of crappy imps (and imps are crap) and one devil for 30 blood slaves and a level 4 blood mage - what is the big deal? Sure you can cast them all over the place but I don't think it is worth the mnassive expenditure that is establishing a blood economy for Hordes of Hell - they are useful but not that good.

I have spent half a game being harassed by people using rituals to summon monsters in my "unprotected zones" and I have never found it that hard to deal with - decent level of defenses plus a few extra troops in strategically placed provinces you don't much want to lose and castles + a few patrallers in provinces that really matter. It has never seemed to me that I'm expending anything like the effort in fighting off harrassing rituals that the casters is spending casting them. Sure you can probably use the rituals more effectively than they have been used against me and I have had success using them but only significant success vs an unwary opponent.

What am I missing about Hordes from Hell?

Cheers

Keir

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Truper:
Sigh. Ice Devils sure aren't what they used to be. Ironic MP story:

summoned the bad boy... and he had no hand slots! No Wraith Sword for him.

Noooooooooooooooooooooo!

[warning rant mode ahead]

It would seem that the Dom1 players who called for the nerfing of blood have got their wish. Great.

Blood used to be fun, real fun - now its supposed to be worth it for Hordes from Hell???? Give me a break.

Sure you can do things with high level blood but in order to do so you have to channel resources that could be spent on expansion (which has a very high rate of return) and I question that its worth it. But most of all where is the fun in this? Take something that was really interesting and enjoyable and turn it into custard - yay!

Ice Devils have no hand slots? That is is so sad. No Devils to play with, no Ice Devils to look forward to, no Pazzazu to aim at just Horde from Hell and some silly fire magic devils who you don't really need. Aaaaaaaarrgggh!

*Gurggle Gurggle* - the sound of blood going down the drain.

Keir

[Graeme Dice]

Ice Devils have no hand slots? That is is so sad.

Have you actually ever looked at the seven different Ice Devils that you can receive? Nycator has two ice fists, and thus can't wield any other weapons. One of them summons free frost fiends, another is an unholy 3 priest. One has weaker physical stats but also has astral 2, which is very useful against anyone that isn't an astral king. The fifth has much better leadership abilities than the others. Number six has a hell sword and stinger built in, and is therefore immune to heat from the get go. The seventh is a fairly standard big attacker with a paralyzing stinger and some other weapon built in.

[apoger]

>Sure you can do things with high level blood but in order to do so you have to channel resources that could be spent on expansion

And how is that different from all the rest of the magic schools?


>Ice Devils have no hand slots?

Only one is missing it's hands. The others are fine.