c'tis themes

[licker]

Thanks for the input. I had not tried with PoD, though I should look at him. I was using a fairly highly magiced pretender for early research boosts, though if I went with more magic scale it would be easier to switch off to the shamen sooner. I may have to revise my blessings goals downward, I just don't see them as that useful to the serpents...

Anyway, what is the cost of making an empoisoner your profit vs. a lizard king? You lose the ability to hit lvl. 5 holy spells, not a big deal I suppose, the difference between 4 and 5 isn't that key. How do you use your empoisoner then? As an assassin?

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Pocus:
hill fortress is an hell to assault (big defence to bring down, then narrow passage & 32 arrows when you assault), coupled with miasma disease, (...) Dont take the dark citadel anyway, too costly, and no arrows when assaulted.

Pros & cons, as Mr G. would say. The higher defense of the cheaper citadels may delay the storming by a turn, sometimes two - more diseases in enemy ranks , and most importantly more time for you to gather reinforcements to lift the siege. Although I certainly would think twice before picking a 600+ gp castle without earth magic (either on the pretender or the national mages).

and some city guards should be a good deterrent...

Hmmm, yes. I usually leave the first 10 in the capital, and I recruit more only when I see the enemy coming.

[licker]

I've had a good amount of success recruiting a bunch of LI in the first couple turns and useing them to beat a path through indies (with indies set at 5 or 6). I use the city gaurd then as a wall to keep the indies off the javaliners for a bit. It's been quite effective, though the CG gets chewed up after a few provinces. However, by that time I've got enough swamp gaurds ready to replace them, and then I can hit provinces that have some HI. This is all without using a SC pretender, its just the army. Is it worth sticking an early marsh master in there for some decent site searching?

The bummer is not being able to use indie HI at the start to help speed up the HI build up. Though maybe one can risk it, even though they will get diseased you can always suicide them at a later time, or just stick them in some backwater and let them die off...

Will their disease spread to your other troops? I guess I should test that...

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by licker:
Anyway, what is the cost of making an empoisoner your profit vs. a lizard king? You lose the ability to hit lvl. 5 holy spells, not a big deal I suppose, the difference between 4 and 5 isn't that key. How do you use your empoisoner then? As an assassin?

"Level 5 holy spells" is only Smite. Try smiting with a level 5 prophet someday, and I think you'll realize it's less useful than the lower level spells. OTOH a stealthy prophet can do what your regular priests can't: spread your dominion outside your borders. No, I wouldn't use my prophet as an assassin - just scout and move him along my dominion's limits.

[ November 07, 2003, 17:44: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by licker:
Is it worth sticking an early marsh master in there for some decent site searching?

Early important leaders - an Empoisoner (if you want one as your prophet), a Lizard King (to lead your first army), an extra commander (as soon as you need him to ferry reinforcements to your army). Other than that, build troops first and recruit mages with what's left in your treasury. When you can afford a Marshmaster instead of a Shaman, buy him and search. When you have 2 sizeable campaigning armies, you can make mages a higher priority than troops. Still, don't save gold for the future, without a very good reason. At least don't in multiplayer.

The bummer is not being able to use indie HI at the start to help speed up the HI build up. Though maybe one can risk it, even though they will get diseased you can always suicide them at a later time, or just stick them in some backwater and let them die off...

I still buy independents with Miasma if I have gold and a use for them. They never Last long enough to die from their diseases anyway - unless they have only 1 hp left after a battle OFC.

Will their disease spread to your other troops?

I don't think so - at least it didn't in Doms 1.

[licker]

So what is a game starting sequence for you then?

Mine had been:
Turn1
1) recruit a MM, and 10 LI
2) research with the pretender
3) defend with the HI commander

Turn2
1a) recruit a shaman and swamp gaurds
1b) or recruit a few swamp gaurds and save cash for a lizard king next turn
2) research with pretender
3) give the 10 LI to the MM, set orders for fire closest
4) set orders for fire closest to the other LI, set orders for attack closest to the CG and commander
5) attack the easiest looking province with the MM and the commander
turn3
1a) recruit shaman and swamp gaurd
1b) recruit lizard king and swamp gaurd/serpents
2) research with pretender and other mage (if 1a)
3) search new province with MM, patrol with other commander
turn4
1a) recruit shaman and save for lizard king
1b) recruit serpents and swamp gaurd
2) prophitize the LK
3) attack another province with the MM and comander (if there is another that makes a good target)
4) reenforce MM and comander army with a shaman and other units
turn5
...

You get the idea... eventually I'd have the LK with a decent number of serpents joining the first army. by turn 10 I'd be able to make 2 armies if needs be, or focus on more difficult provinces. Eventually I'd get enchantment and conjuration where I want and would start summoning...

Room for improvement in my sequence I guess, I hope you'll have some good advice

[Pocus]

Some more notes on C'tis units :

with Miasma you get the serpent dancer, which is not that terrible, but is perhaps the cheapest unit available with a so high defence (20 gp, and 16 def). Very vulnerable to archer fire, but mixed with some heavy infantry, they will gladily parry some of the attacks of your enemy. Rather secondary in role, true.

If you compare the city guard to Ctis heavy infantry, I think the city guard comes ahead. 2 less defence true, but an unvaluable strat move of 2 compared to 1 for the HI. Also, his nifty x2 bonus in castle defence, which is rather handy when you have 50 to 100 around...

for sacred serpent and his standard effect : now that we know (thanks JO) how is calculated the area, I would not advise to simply put them in with a commander in the the rear of a big formation: I dont think that with 10 squares total you can affect anything past 3, or even 2, in radius.

[Pocus]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pocus:
[qb]hill fortress is an hell to assault (big defence to bring down, then narrow passage & 32 arrows when you assault), coupled with miasma disease, (...) Dont take the dark citadel anyway, too costly, and no arrows when assaulted.

Pros & cons, as Mr G. would say. The higher defense of the cheaper citadels may delay the storming by a turn, sometimes two - more diseases in enemy ranks , and most importantly more time for you to gather reinforcements to lift the siege. Although I certainly would think twice before picking a 600+ gp castle without earth magic (either on the pretender or the national mages).

---

I think I still prefer the hill fortress, compared to the dark citadel. The dark citadel has more defence, so perhaps buy you a turn, but when you storm one, there is nothing in your favor (no arrows).

Whereas try to storm a hill fortress. Even in storm, the 32 arrows fire so close that you are certain to hit units. With some units holding the breach (a mixed group of city guards that you would happen to have and lizard warriors, because they have high morale), you can hold without too much problem at least 8 rounds, and this is a very minimal assessment (there is only 3 squares to fight in the inner courtyard).
During these 8 rounds, you will have fired 250 arrows, at point blank (accurary is not a big problem, even in storm). Thats mean some losses, which means in return less troops to breach the wall of another of your castle.

And dark citadel cost 600 gp, which is simply too much in dom2 (I plan to launch a discussion on this btw, the gold cost is not valued enough I think).

[licker]

Originally posted by Pocus:
Some more notes on C'tis units :

with Miasma you get the serpent dancer, which is not that terrible, but is perhaps the cheapest unit available with a so high defence (20 gp, and 16 def). Very vulnerable to archer fire, but mixed with some heavy infantry, they will gladily parry some of the attacks of your enemy. Rather secondary in role, true.

If you compare the city guard to Ctis heavy infantry, I think the city guard comes ahead. 2 less defence true, but an unvaluable strat move of 2 compared to 1 for the HI. Also, his nifty x2 bonus in castle defence, which is rather handy when you have 50 to 100 around...

for sacred serpent and his standard effect : now that we know (thanks JO) how is calculated the area, I would not advise to simply put them in with a commander in the the rear of a big formation: I dont think that with 10 squares total you can affect anything past 3, or even 2, in radius.

Actually you do not get serpent dancers with miasma (or DTombs for that matter). I agree that CG is better than HI, but not better than SGs. Well at least for attacking, in defending forts they are probably better as you can get 6 for 5 in gold cost and near 2 for 1 in resource cost, not counting their 2x defense bonus.

The serpents should be mixed in somewhat with your infantry too, though I like to try to flank with a group of them, if they get into the back of the enemy they are quite disruptive

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Pocus:
I think I still prefer the hill fortress (...)

To be fair I still haven't seen a hill fortress "in action", so you're a better judge than me on this.

And dark citadel cost 600 gp, which is simply too much

Didn't I say I'd think twice before picking such a fortress without at least a bit of earth magic? Anyway I doubt we'll see as many fortresses in Doms 2 as we were used to in PPP, where you'd build them for economic reasons as much as for strategic ones. That's no more the case (a good thing IMO), now you build them for strategic reasons, and only if your income is high enough to build extra troops there. In small packed games, these cheap (in design points) 350 defense citadels are a bargain, if you don't expect to build any. In rich or big games, I'd pick a 300-450 gp castle any day (although I might want to go for high defense/low DP cost in site-rich games with an earth nation or pretender).