An AI question for a Dev

[Gandalf Parker]

Not bad. Not bad at all. You went a different direction than I thought you would. I must admit that I expected to do alot of "AH HA! but look at this" Posts but you cut me off.

So rather than a full scripting language with if-this then-this triggers and responses, you are looking more for external variables? Allowing the game to do the recognition and math?

OK for troops that can work. And although I can see alot of "the AI did a stupid thing" it might also provide some intelligent moves. So how would you set the parameters for Ulm?

[licker]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Not bad. Not bad at all. You went a different direction than I thought you would. I must admit that I expected to do alot of "AH HA! but look at this" Posts but you cut me off.

So rather than a full scripting language with if-this then-this triggers and responses, you are looking more for external variables? Allowing the game to do the recognition and math?

OK for troops that can work. And although I can see alot of "the AI did a stupid thing" it might also provide some intelligent moves. So how would you set the parameters for Ulm?

Heh, glad you see the simplicity of what I'm suggesting. Its alot of matricies, but once you have them set up, its more about making the appropriate algorythem to use them than a butt load of scripting

I think that if the game is keeping track of all the information anyway, the AI might as well use it with some rules (the algorythems I speak of) to make 'better' decisions as to how to spend its resources. I admit this doesn't make the AI better strategically necessarilly, but it makes the AI have a better rounded (or focused) nation to use.

I'm loathe to actually try and do this for any nation, as I am really quite new to Dominions, I was hoping that some of you vets, who know what works for you, would take a crack at it, then I can try to fill in the cracks or elaborate on the driving algorythems.

But since you asked...

First you have to determine what kind of pretender Ulm will have, and you have to decide on the theme. If we are using the 'personalities' that has to be taken into consideration as well. Anyway, Ulms strength would either be in its HI or blessed Knights (depending on pretneder). So I'd set up a generic table with 20% xbow, 20% LI/Militia 40% HI, and 20% HC. The numbers would then be effected on a per turn basis (not drasticly) as Ulm expands and the gold/resource ratio changes. The specific units within a class should probably be an equal mixture (for Ulm since the differnces arn't great). Those specific units (flail v. axe) can have their weights adjusted later on when (and or if) enemy forces are also considered.

That's crude, and I'm no expert (especially not with Ulm), but does it give a decent example of what I'm after? I think you'd do better to set one up yourself and let me ask questions and comment on it

[georgevtucker]

My $.02:

I don't know anything about the programming end of the AIs. Having said that -- I think it would be a good idea to enable a set of likes/dislikes, or attack priorities, for the AI players.

For instance, Marignon should always attack Ermor in preference to any other neighbor. Abysia and Jotunheim would seem natural enemies, as well. Alliances between "enemy" nations would be disallowed.

To extend this thought further -- nations that have similar requirements, Abysia/Machaka and Caelum/Jotunheim, would be least likely to attack one another. If their scales are going in the same direction, they're working toward the same end. This kind of grudging friendship would both help and hinder the human player, and increase the depth and personality of the separate nations.

At the highest level of difficulty, all AI players would attack human players first, then neutral, and one another Last.

I'm thinking of old Master of Orion, where all the races had separate personalities unless you played on the highest difficulty, when they all became Aggressive Xenophobes/John Ashcrofts.

Having said all this -- thanks guys for the outstanding game.

[Gandalf Parker]

We are beginning to see the level of what we are asking. OK let me push this ahead.

Ulm has 2 Versions of each unit, one cheap and one more expensive with better armor rating. So for Ulm you would get into hi-cheap and hi-expensive. Obviously the entire formula for Ulm wont work for any other AI.

Ive heard in these conversations much mention of needing more heavy units. Personally I dont think the AI can buy enough hvy units as early in the game as people are talking about. More cheap units may be an advantage.

But even then, what about races like Pangaea? In Dom1 I almost never bought hvy units for Pangaea. Their advantage was not in them as an army. That may have changed with Dom2 but Im suspecting that if the wonderful balance is still in place that there is no way to develop a "better AI" that will work for all races because each race has very definate pros and cons.

Even if you do find a formula for one race it might work well for indep 2 but not for indep 6 and not for indep 9. Just one example of a game setting variable

I do like the thing about racial preferences though. I agree that having things like Marignon attacking Ermor on sight would make sense.

[ November 05, 2003, 22:09: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[licker]

See the other AI thread for how to modify the matricies more quickly and easilly. Its not a perfect description, but I don't see why it wouldn't work. You can have different operators for different levels of indie strength, differnt levels of richness, different whatever you think you need an opeator for.

That operator then gets applied over the others, its pretty simple and stratforward matrix algebra. The difficulty comes in chosing the right values for the operators, but that's no different than we already have I'd guess. In fact using the operators gives the user a lot more flexibility in tweeking the AI preferences as they see fit. Well thats a no brainer statement, since the user currently has no way to do this (yes yes script up a map, but we're talking about general AI now )

[Zerger]

Originally posted by von_Schmidt:

quote:

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Originally posted by DominionsFAN:
licker you think that the devs will care about the AI at all? I tend to think, that they are totally ignoring this topic.

How about you stop your incessant complaining about that?

One of the Devs has stated they are reading the threads and *are* looking for specific complaints and specific suggestions about how to improve the AI. So it is actually in their mind.

If you want to get an improved AI, you might want to offer some constructive insights instead of *demanding* replies.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

von Schmidt

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Actually there are lot of suggestions about the AI, and those suggestions ARE all good. All of those are about valid AI problems.
I can understand if DFan is pissed, the devs made like 1 comment in that huge thread.

[HJ]

Racial preferences sound especially nice if there will be a possibility of selecting random AI opponents. I'm not complaining, it's just a thought.