Mistake in PPB data?

[UseOfWeps]

Hi all,

I'm well aware that everyone has pretty much reached the conclusion that PPBs are undercosted research-wise for the damage they do. I was just mulling over the data files for some of the weapons and noticed a bit of a discrepancy. Here's the PPB damage values:

code:

---

1  30  25  25  25  20  20    5,000

2  45  40  40  40  35  35   10,000

3  50  45  45  45  40  40   22,500

4  55  50  50  45  45  45   40,000

5  60  55  55  55  50  50   62,500

---

Note the progression between level 1 and 2 - 15pts across the board! Contrast this with APBs changes per level of either 0 or 5 pts and it seems odd. Then note that it's a flat 5pts per level after that for PPB, and I can't help but feel that this is a mistake and there are 2 missing levels of PPBs meant to be here, ie:

code:

---

1  30  25  25  25  20  20    5,000

2  35  30  30  30  25  25   10,000

3  40  35  35  35  30  30   22,500

4  45  40  40  40  35  35   40,000

5  50  45  45  45  40  40   62,500

6  55  50  50  45  45  45   90,000

7  60  55  55  55  50  50  122,500

---

Adding in these two new levels would result in the following research costs:

APB to max = 1,677,500
old PPBs = 290,000
new PPBs = 502,500

I think this still leaves PPBs undercosted, but seems like a step in the right direction. Anyone have any thoughts on this? I think I will make this change to the next game I play with my friends, as well as interleaving shields and phased shields in the Shield tech, as opposed to having to get to Shields 6 to start on phased shielding. Perhaps these 2 small tweaks will introduce some more weapon diversity in our group's games.

/UseOfWeps.

[Slynky]

Interesting.

[Slick]

Arise! Ye olde dead horse!

All sarcasm aside, you are right in that PPB's could use some balancing in most peoples' opinion. PPB balancing discussions have been debated at length here on several occasions in the past. Best thing I can tell you is either mod your files or use a mod that you think balances them to your liking. There are unfortunately no more intended patches to SE4.

Slick.

[ April 02, 2004, 14:30: Message edited by: Slick ]

[UseOfWeps]

Sorry for resurrecting a long dead issue. I only started playing reasonably recently, and didn't see anything in the Dubious guide about missing levels, just under costing. So I thought I had a new angle, but more likely someone else has noticed the discrepancies in damage increases and posted it here before me.

/UseOfWeps.

[Roanon]

There are more issues to balancing, like the totally useless torpedoes and weapons like the Meson BLaster.
I don't know many mods, which one could be recommended if I just want as basic SE as possible only with better weapon/tech balancing?

[ April 02, 2004, 17:46: Message edited by: Roanon ]

[Suicide Junkie]

I suggest looking to SE3 for weapons balance.

[Roanon]

Did Aaron actually manage to make this game that much worse? I just thought he just hadn't paid attention to this, but deliberatly changing something working to this stuff, where a 6 year old can find out that they make no sense at all, by just looking at the figures, without ever having played the game, is ... hmmm. And what did the beta testers do? Were there any? Lowers my expectations for SE V even more.

So where is the SE3 mod?

[Fyron]

I started one of those, but gave up after a while...

[Arkcon]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
I suggest looking to SE3 for weapons balance.

Well, I suggest looking at SJ's Pirates and Nomads mod to see a good example of PPB balance.

It does seem that the PPB is a little unfair as a weapon. But that may be the point. Against the standard AI, once you figure out to rush the research, you can beat the AI easily. Once you've beaten the AI a few times, you can ignore the PPB to handicap yourself.

[Fyron]

You can often be just as effective, if not even far more effective, by rushing for Combat Support 2 and Sensors 2 instead, as well as training. PPBs are not really a necessary weapon in most cases, especially given their high cost. Of course, it all depends on whether the enemy has had time to research these things and their PPBs or not when war breaks out. But usually, better combat bonuses can defeat better weapons.