Question for mainly you PBW/PBEM players :) (planning Earth and Beyond Mod)

[Sivran]

Why for PBW/PBEM players? 'Cus at this stage I'm not even considering the AI, that's why. What the heck am I talking about? I'm planning out my Earth and Beyond mod, and I've come to something I feel I must refer to the potential audience (come to think of it, are any of you interested? How many of you know what EnB is?)

That question is: How drastic, how devestating to your strategy, how big a disadvantage and how much of a show-stopper is not being able to have warp point openers (and closers)?

See, to emulate the Jenquai ability to open a wormhole at will, I plan to limit WP openers to that race. But I don't know how big a deal that is to veteran players. Hence, I ask you all.

[ March 15, 2004, 20:38: Message edited by: Sivran ]

[Ruatha]

If it's in a mod I can accept it.
The problem is if the opener/closer race chooses to turtle....

[Sivran]

Hm. I can sorta see that being an issue. Jenquai won't be very effective turtles though, even if they seal themselves off, Progens and Terrans will outclass them in shields and armor and can just wait for the Jenpie to come out--or fight it out among themselves and then declare Last man standing, aside from the turtle, the winner, leaving the turtle out in the cold.

[primitive]

It will still be a problem. The �Jenquai will be able to pick the other empires apart system by system. - Jump from a safe location (empty system) send in a fleet with closers and close the system off. If this don't succed, another 20 turns of boredom until the next fleet are ready, then try again.

To make the mod playable you could also make openers/closers available to the other races but at an insane price (something like 10 times normal researchpoints). That would give the Jenquai a limited time to take the other guys out. Not sure if I would want to play such a mod anyway though

[Sivran]

I did not consider the use of closers without using an opener first. Thusly why I posted it here.

It turns out I can't do this the way I would like to. Ideally, I could prevent Jenquai from (ab)using their advantage by limiting openers and closers to only working on small WPs, but that's not possible.

But I'm not giving up entirely on placing limits here, I'll just limit the range of Terran and Progen WP openers and make them more expensive. They have to build a gate, after all..

[Alneyan]

A few random thoughts:

These nice devices tend to be pivotal in my strategy, and I would hate to be vulnerable to these if I cannot respond myself. If the player using the Warp Openers/Closers is clever enough, and/or if there are only a few choke points, it is easy to close the wormholes as needed, thus preventing any enemy fleet from coming close to your worlds.

I have been trying the following strategy recently (*Winks at Primitive*), and I do believe it would work if done properly as you cannot ward yourself from Warp Openers/Closers without using these devices yourself. (Well, there is a facility protecting a system from warp opening/closing, but it cannot be built in a nebulae obviously) Lastly, it does give you the advantage of choosing your battles, allowing you to strike about anywhere without being too exposed to a retaliation if you protect your systems well.

So the Jenquai should have an easier access to these devices, while the research cost should be higher for the other races. This way, Jenquai would have an earlier access to these devices (if they go for it as soon as possible), but the early levels wouldn't be too efficient and they would be behind in other fields then.

Assuming the research cost is the same for them that in the vanilla game, you can reach Warp Openers/Warp Closers very early if you have enough space to expand. (Being boxed in a corner with two systems makes matter all the more complicated obviously) But then I tend to go overboard with technology as well. On the other hand, in the end game, they would have longer ranged openers, thus giving them an edge over the other races in this field, but a lesser advantage I guess. (It also depends on what assets the other races have, as there is quite a difference between having slightly stronger torpedoes and, say, the Religious trait. )

[Sivran]

Ok, so that's settled. Jenquai will get longer range on their openers, and all races will have openers and closers.

If it isn't obvious, I'll be removing the current racial techs, like Crystal, Religious, etc, they have no place in the EnB universe.

[spoon]

I'm not familiar with the EnB universe, but what if only the Jenqui had warp-point openers (as your original plan), but nobody (including the Jenqui) had warp-point closers? I think you could balance out the Jenqui by making them weaker in other areas, even with this very nice tech advantage...

[Sivran]

That might be doable, but the map might get messy.

The basic run-down is..

Jenquai have weak shields and armor, but are stealthy (in EnB, low "sig" makes them hard to see, in SE4, only Jenpie will have cloak, same as in EnB), average speed and a choice of hard-hitting but slow-firing beams, or near-equivalent faster firing beams that do less damage per hit. They also have summon and fold space skills, which can be used to move them or their enemies around on the battlefield (Jenpie may have exclusive access to tractor/repulsor technology, but even if non-unique theirs will be greatly enhanced). In EnB, Jenquai also tend to have good resistance to damage to mitigate their shields and armor problems (Jenpie in SE4 may have more advanced emissive armor).

The Progen are opposites of the Jenquai (and they hate them, too), with strong shields and armor but suffering in the speed department (if your motto is "speed is life"--don't be a Progen). The Progen prefer projectile weapons, which fire much faster than beams and missiles but do less damage per hit. This may turn out to be a great disadvantage in SE4 as I've heard combat is often resolved with the first salvo later on in the game. In EnB, the Progen are supposed to be the ultimate warriors, and get an extra weapon slot over their counterparts. I'm most interesting in emulating Progen "Shield Nova" which, while draining the Progen's shields, strikes every enemy in range with energy damage. Don't know how this would be done in SE4, however. Failing that, the Progen have a skill that allows them to slow their (almost always faster) enemies down, thus Progen may receive exclusive access to engine-disablers, and possibly weapons that in addition to normal damage, have an engine-disabling effect (if possible?). Engine-disablers in EnB mod will skip shields, just like they did in 1.84.

Terrans are an average of the other two races, with shields and armor in the middle and only a few nifty skills. Terrans are the speed demons of EnB (or they're supposed to be..) thus they will receive the benefits of SE4's Propulsion Experts trait. Terrans prefer missiles, which do a lot of damage but fire very slowly, and occasionally miss more often at range (reducing damage). In SE4, facing doesn't matter, but in EnB the ability to fire backwards was limited to missiles (guess the Progen and Jenquai never developped turrets). Terrans would also get the natural merchants trait. Everyone knows Terrans are greedy. Being the only race with the Hacking skill, Terrans in SE4 will get exclusive access to the computer virus. That's all I can think of for Terrans off the top of my head, aside from some skills I don't want to emulate.

Weapons tech will not be exclusive up to a point. Each race will be able to research the others' preferred weapons, but will not be able to research it to the highest level. This mod will require much playtesting to get the weapons balanced I think.

[Alneyan]

Unfortunately you cannot add different damages on a single weapon. (That is, no engine damage+regular damage as in your example.) However, it might be possible to put several damage types on a mine, but I have never checked if it works. (A mine with a warhead doing damage to the engines, and another warhead doing regular damage)

Likewise, you cannot do something like the "Shield Nova" with the current code, as I don't think there is an effect draining the shields of a single ship (there is an ability lowering the shields for all ships in a given sector/system though, but that wouldn't work here). Boarding does lower your shields though, so it might be a solution with another purpose in mind.

Lastly, a single weapon cannot target multiple ships at once, although you could work around that by giving the Progen much improved Multiplex Targetting components, and smaller weapons, allowing them to attack several ships at once if they can do enough damage.

Good luck to you with this project, and the limitations of the current SE4. I am looking forward to playing such a mod, and will be interested by the results.