OT:splendid WWII movie you'll never see:(

[gregebowman]

First of all, although you may not hear about foreign films being available in the states, I know for a fact that they are. Suncoast Motion Picture has a few. I even bought a German film called Stalingrad, about the events there as seen through the eyes of the German troops. Very interesting film. I'm just glad I wasn't there. If this PQ-17 film ever makes it to the states in dvd form, I'll buy it.

Speaking of this PQ-17, I admit I know nothing about it. In my teen years, I was an avid reader when it came to WWII. I must have read everythig in my high school library on the subject. But I don't remember reading about this. It's a shame, though, that the escorts ran when they could have at least made a try at defending the convoy. But if I was the commander, and I saw the Tirpitz, I might run too. Hard to tell what one will do unless you're in that position.

But speaking of Russians and tragedy, there's an event that happened at the end of the war that should make some Russians ashamed. There was a passenger ship, whose name I can't remember, crammed full of over 10,000 fleeing Germans, mostly civilians. I can't recall which body of water it was, but the ship was either torpedoed or shelled, and sank, killing most of those 10,000. This is a tragedy far greater than the Titanic, yet no one ever talks about it. I've only seen a couple of references to it in some of those books I used to read.

[ February 16, 2004, 13:31: Message edited by: gregebowman ]

[Unknown_Enemy]

Originally posted by gregebowman:
First of all, although you may not hear about foreign films being available in the states, I know for a fact that they are. Suncoast Motion Picture has a few. I even bought a German film called Stalingrad, about the events there as seen through the eyes of the German troops. Very interesting film. I'm just glad I wasn't there. If this PQ-17 film ever makes it to the states in dvd form, I'll buy it.

Speaking of this PQ-17, I admit I know nothing about it. In my teen years, I was an avid reader when it came to WWII. I must have read everythig in my high school library on the subject. But I don't remember reading about this. It's a shame, though, that the escorts ran when they could have at least made a try at defending the convoy. But if I was the commander, and I saw the Tirpitz, I might run too. Hard to tell what one will do unless you're in that position.

But speaking of Russians and tragedy, there's an event that happened at the end of the war that should make some Russians ashamed. There was a passenger ship, whose name I can't remember, crammed full of over 10,000 fleeing Germans, mostly civilians. I can't recall which body of water it was, but the ship was either torpedoed or shelled, and sank, killing most of those 10,000. This is a tragedy far greater than the Titanic, yet no one ever talks about it. I've only seen a couple of references to it in some of those books I used to read.

For the Allied, civilians ships were as much a target as military. In fact, civilian belongings that could (even barely) be used by military were deemed legitimate targets for all involved countries. It is only AFTER the end of WW2 that was developped this guilt about civilian casualties.

[oleg]

It was Wilghelm Gustloff. Sank January 30, 1945, around 4 a.m. with the loss of more than 5000 lives.

Here is a short story: http://www.militaryhistoryOnline.com...mgustloff.aspx

But how could Marinescu knew it was passenger liner with 6000 refuges ? Complete darkeness, 4 am in winter, large enemy convoy in sight...

[ February 16, 2004, 16:16: Message edited by: oleg ]

[Intimidator]

Oleg,

You don't have to justify the fact that they killed civilians.
A lot, and I mean A LOT, of mistakes where made in WOII at both sides.

As I told before I life in the Netherlands, in the city of Nymegen. 20 km south of Arnhem (Market garden !!)

The US. bombed Nymegen in 1944, because they thought it was the German town : Kleve
I can tell you they missed Kleve by 27 km !!

But lucky for us the town of Nymegen now posses a Square called : Square 1944 (is no joke)

Intimidator , (Frans)

[gregebowman]

Originally posted by Unknown_Enemy:
[

For the Allied, civilians ships were as much a target as military. In fact, civilian belongings that could (even barely) be used by military were deemed legitimate targets for all involved countries. It is only AFTER the end of WW2 that was developped this guilt about civilian casualties. [/QB][/quote]

The firebombing of Dresden is a good example of that. The city was full of refugees, but it was firebombed almost out of existence. I don't think the city even had a strategic value. I think it was the policy to do anything that would destroy the morale of the German people.

[Intimidator]

DRESDEN 1945

Rumours: ' The bombing took place at the end of the war, Germany was already beaten. The only reason for the bombing was to show the Soviets what the west was capable of: 100.000 deaths '

[tesco samoa]

Could you please just place a link to that picture with a warning.

[Intimidator]

Sorry, You are right.
Did not think of that.

Intimidator,

[gregebowman]

Not only did the Allies do that to Dresden, America was doing that on almost a daily basis in the Last stages of WWII on Japan. ONly when they figured that it would cost over a million Allied lives for an invasion did they decide to drop the bomb. Twice! Even though the thought of atomic war still frightens me (and anyone who has lived through the Cold War), I think it was the right decision. It got the Japanese to stop thinking about their code of Bushido and the Divine Wind, and settle for a surrender.

[Unknown_Enemy]

Here are some numbers with the source that provided them.
Hum, wait a minute.
Did I said it ?
....
Yes I did.
I said Numbers. Not humans, not soldiers or fathers, just numbers. Sometime, in the heat of a discussion, we forget what we are talking about : the death by violent means of millions of people.


# Union of Soviet Socialist Republics

* Military:
o Info. Please: 6,115,000 (all causes)
o Compton's: 6,750,000
o Keegan: 7,000,000
o Small & Singer: 7,500,000
o Eckhardt: 7,500,000
o Davies: 8,000,000 to 9,000,000
o Mazower: 3M POWs through starvation + 6.5M in battle = 9.5M
o Urlanis: 10,000,000
o Volkogonov: 10,000,000
o Ellis: 11,000,000
o Britannica: 11,000,000
o Encarta: 13,000,000
o Kinder: 13,600,000
o Wallechinsky: 13,600,000
o HarperCollins: 14,500,000
o 30 Apr. 1994 Guardian: 22M
o Steven Shabad
+ Sokolov's new calculations: 26.4M
+ Gorbachev's official est.: 8,668,000 Red Army dead
o MEDIAN: 10M
* Civilian:
o Compton's: 6M
o Ellis: 6,700,000
o Britannica: 7,000,000
o HarperCollins: 7,000,000
o Encarta: 7,000,000
o Kinder: 7,000,000
o Keegan: 7,000,000
o Eckhardt: 7,500,000
o Mazower: 10M
o Urlanis: 10,000,000
o Steven Shabad (citing Sokolov): 16.9M
o Davies: 16,000,000 to 19,000,000
o 30 Apr. 1994 Guardian: 18M
o MEDIAN: 7M
* Total:
o Compton's: 12.75M
o Keegan: 14M
o Eckhardt: 15M
o Ellis: 17.7M
o Britannica: 18M
o Mazower: 19.5M
o Encarta: 20M
o Messenger: 20M
o Urlanis: 20M
o Kinder: 20.6M
o HarperCollins: 21.5M
o Wallechinsky: 20-26M
o Davies: 24M to 28M
o Volkogonov, Dmitri, Stalin: Triumph and Tragedy (1991): 26-27M
o Hochschild: 27M
o 30 Apr. 1994 Guardian: 40M
o Steven Shabad
+ Sokolov's new calculations: 43.3M
+ Stalin's official public est.: 7M dead
+ Khrushchev's official est.: 20M
+ Gorbachev's official est.: 27M
o Barbarossa, the Axis and the Allies, by John Erickson and David Dilks: 49M (acc2 book review: Agence France Presse, 16 June 1994)
o MEDIAN: 20M