Is the intelligence in SE(?) ok?

[President_Elect_Shang]

Before I run out to do some errands I wanted to pose a question that has long been on the tip of my tongue, I hope I don�t open a can of worms with this one.

How many of you feel that the intelligence projects as they are now are ok? What I mean by that can best be described in this manner.

Given that some humans have the propensity for greed (amongst other reasons) and can be bought out, do you really think that any human would be alright selling out information or sabotaging the ship they are on for the benefit of (at random) the Eee, and how about the reverse? I don�t use intelligence (turn it off) because I have never been able to stomach it. Given that this is a game and the intelligence is added in to provide a new dimension to play do you really think that it is ok the way it stands? I am not trying to say that all intelligence should be dropped in SE5 but don�t you think a conditional Version of the projects would be better? As another example should one of my opponents be allowed to sabotage a planet I control if we are in a non-intercourse treaty or war? If I have all incoming warp points picketed how did the operative get past my ships to screw with me in the first place? Did he slip past in a one man ship that I can�t detect? If that is the case than why can�t I build a zillion (purposefully silly) of these one man ships and invade him? Just a thought/question.

[ December 16, 2003, 18:01: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

[Alneyan]

Actually in Star Fury, which is based on Space Empires, there are quite a few civilian ships going here and there between systems. You might expect a spy to be hiding in one of these freighters as a crew member for example. And even my most isolationist Empire cannot stay outside of trade.

But I admit I have never been too keen on intelligence, although I am not sure why. Perhaps it is merely because I prefer to do other tasks such as spying myself with my ships rather than relying on an abstract project, or because Intelligence is a too risky business, especially when the target knows you have been trying to send a few operatives. Of course, if you can convince a few neighbours to gang on the same target, it is a whole different story.

[AMF]

I typically think of the intel as being like Deep Space Nine...and I think it works pretty well for a game of this sort, except sometimes the scale of the effects can be extreme. I'll never forget the time that Freduk totally dismantled my empire with Food Contamination, each time killing hundreds of millions of people and depopulating whole systems. "Don't eat the damn tribble meat from Alpha Centauri you fools! It's POISONED!" But would they listen? NOoooooo....

(and, hey, Freduk, if you're listening: sorry I was such a jerk over that man...my fault, I had just returned to Online gaming and thought I was in an RP game when it was a war game, and other reasons...my bad...I'm embarrased by my behaviour. You taught me a good lesson about gameplay and intel [and manners])

Originally posted by Alneyan:
Actually in Star Fury, which is based on Space Empires, there are quite a few civilian ships going here and there between systems. You might expect a spy to be hiding in one of these freighters as a crew member for example. And even my most isolationist Empire cannot stay outside of trade.

But I admit I have never been too keen on intelligence, although I am not sure why. Perhaps it is merely because I prefer to do other tasks such as spying myself with my ships rather than relying on an abstract project, or because Intelligence is a too risky business, especially when the target knows you have been trying to send a few operatives. Of course, if you can convince a few neighbours to gang on the same target, it is a whole different story.

[gregebowman]

Intelligence is probably one of the Last things I research, because I have no desire to sabotage and spy. Unfortunately, even though I don't do it, it does happen to me most of the time. Then I'm motivated to research it. I'd rather not. Those research points can go to better projects.

[Q]

I like intel if it is modded to be more effective:
A very well defended strategic enemy planet and not enough ships in reach to attack. Then a PPP or (modded new) intel projects that cause a plague or even the planet destruction. And nothing more devastating than a communication mimic and you break up a long Lasting partnership with 20% trade bonus! IMO it adds a lot to the variety of the game.
And of course intelligence in sex is always good

[ December 16, 2003, 17:23: Message edited by: Q ]

[President_Elect_Shang]

I don�t mean to say that I don�t like the intelligence projects, just not all of them as they are. You know if we joined up and developed a more (or less) realistic (game wise speaking) set of intelligence projects I am sure Aaron would give them consideration. As for StarFury it assumes that the empires in question are not ripping each others throats out, at least I think so. I have not had the chance to play it as of yet because it will not run on my computer, but I am working with Aaron to solve the problem so maybe soon�

[se5a]

what if the size of the empire made a diference to how well intell worked, ie if an empire is small it would be harder to sabotage and spy on.
if it is larger it would be easyer.

also makeing repeted operations get more and more expencive agansed an empire (ie the other empire finds ways to prevent water contamination after it happens a copple of times, therefore makeing it a lot harder to acomplish)

[AMF]

Well, even if empires were ripping each other's throats out, they would still have rogue amd lawless elements running guns, info, trade goods between them. Most wars throguhout human history, even the nastiest ones, have still involved trade on these levels.

And, from what I know of intel, having projects as its unit of measure/unit of analysis is the way to go...it's more a matter of how to model those projects, I would think...

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
I don�t mean to say that I don�t like the intelligence projects, just not all of them as they are. You know if we joined up and developed a more (or less) realistic (game wise speaking) set of intelligence projects I am sure Aaron would give them consideration. As for StarFury it assumes that the empires in question are not ripping each others throats out, at least I think so. I have not had the chance to play it as of yet because it will not run on my computer, but I am working with Aaron to solve the problem so maybe soon�

[President_Elect_Shang]

Right, my point also, they should be modeled better. The flaw in your logic about the smugglers etc is that you are using our history. As we are one planet and it is not possible for a country to defend every inch of its borders, and I do mean every inch [Edited in for clarity: By every inch I also mean above and below ground.], smuggling can take place. Also don�t forget that you are speaking of one human dealing with another. Still I have to agree it is really a good point. In the case of SE(?) we are dealing with only a few points of entry (Warp Points) and another species, not even bipedal in some cases. These limited points of entry into your empire can be well defended and even the dumbest guard is not likely to wave in an assassin from the Green Slimy Amorphous Empire.

As far as SEx goes man did I make a typo or what, let me change the title of this thread!

[ December 16, 2003, 18:03: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

[Alneyan]

And even without consider trade with this Dishonourable Foe, you will need freighters within your own systems, if only to bring food to this industrial world of yours. Humans being what they are, the Dishonourable Foe might try to corrupt a captain or three of such ships, thus allowing for potential spies to make it to your planets.

And then I do like Scout's suggestion: it should be harder to strike a race with a mere planet and two ships than an Empire ruling over a thousand worlds. And the more attacks you launch, the more prepared your opponents would be, especially against the same planet. You would expect a planet who has just suffered from a catastrophic plague because of some operative to be much more cautious, wouldn't you?

What I would like as well would be to have actual operatives to perform these projects. You might try to have a few, very talented agents, able to succeed much more easily than your average Joe, or a lot of beginner agents, or an elite team dedicated to Counter-Intelligence, or some Jack-of-all-trades and so on. Something along these lines was done for Imperium Galactica, and was probably one of the few good ideas in this game.