i'm a political failure!!!

DirectorTsaarx · #1 February 27th, 2001, 04:35 PM

Don't get too upset; in coding the AI to make it more challenging, it also became moodier; it frequently breaks treaties within a couple turns. The main reason is that many of the AI's now get angry fairly quickly. And the source of anger is generally tied to allies (!) building colonies in the AI systems, allies having ships in the AI systems, the AI noticing lots of colonizable planets in the (human) ally's system, but the (human) ally already has colonies on those planets... you get the idea. I've found that offering gifts in the first couple turns of a treaty will help get over the initial anger, and sometimes they'll maintain a treaty even when they get "murderous" towards you. BTW, offering gifts and/or tribute sometimes helps get a treaty in the first place.

UmberGryphon · #2 February 28th, 2001, 12:14 AM

quote:
Originally posted by DirectorTsaarx:
And the source of anger is generally tied to... the AI noticing lots of colonizable planets in the (human) ally's system, but the (human) ally already has colonies on those planets....

One might wonder how the AI ever got happy enough with you to offer you a treaty if it was coveting your planets. The answer is that most of the AIs (14 of the 20 default races) covet more of their allies' planets than they do of their enemies' planets. This seems totally backwards to me, but it's true. So as soon as you become an ally, they start lusting after more of your planets, which makes them angrier.

Example: the Cue Cappa covet 10% of allied planets and 0% of enemy planets. In one game, the CueCappa and I were both partners of the Praetorians, who had ships through half my empire 'cause they were at war with the Norak and the shortest path was across my empire. The Cue Cappa and I had no treaty, they offered me a trade alliance, I accepted, and 4 turns later they were murderous and at war with me ('cause they were suddenly coveting 10% of half my empire, which they could see via the Praetorians).

The easiest way to get treaties is either (a) to send a scout far away to a race that can't see any of your planets, or (b) talk to the Eee, Phong, Praetorian or Toltayan empires, who don't covet.

dumbluck · #3 February 28th, 2001, 02:02 AM

i'm having troubles with alliances. when i do manage to get a race to give me a TA (which is a rarity in itself), they usually just get mad at me and cancel it about 5-10 turns later. what am i doing wrong?

very confused am i, oh yes!

mottlee · #4 February 28th, 2001, 06:15 AM

LOL at that point I just go about and KILL-EM all!

jowe01 · #5 February 28th, 2001, 12:15 PM

Well, "Kill'em all" is an option, but in my eyes, this threat is another indicator that the diplomacy/attitude system needsm a major overhaul. "Murderous" allies and "brotherly" ennemies steadfastly refusing to maken peace - sorry, that always sounds ridiculous.

Also, in my first 1.27 game, I am now at war with all known AIs (I am not MEE). Some of them only encountered me once and since then are at least 2 systems away. Neither me nor them send any ships. How the heck do they "scan" my planets to get angry ?

[This message has been edited by jowe01 (edited 28 February 2001).]

dumbluck · #6 March 19th, 2001, 08:54 AM

sorry its been so long since i replied. I have a couple of questions, though:
-What does MEE stand for?

==========================================
One might wonder how the AI ever got happy enough with you to offer you a treaty if it was coveting your planets. The answer is that most of the AIs (14 of the 20 default races) covet more of their allies' planets than they do of their enemies' planets. This seems totally backwards to me, but it's true. So as soon as you become an ally, they start lusting after more of your planets, which makes them angrier.

Example: the Cue Cappa covet 10% of allied planets and 0% of enemy planets. In one game, the CueCappa and I were both partners of the Praetorians, who had ships through half my empire 'cause they were at war with the Norak and the shortest path was across my empire. The Cue Cappa and I had no treaty, they offered me a trade alliance, I accepted, and 4 turns later they were murderous and at war with me ('cause they were suddenly coveting 10% of half my empire, which they could see via the Praetorians).

The easiest way to get treaties is either (a) to send a scout far away to a race that can't see any of your planets, or (b) talk to the Eee, Phong, Praetorian or Toltayan empires, who don't covet.
=========================================

My problem with this is that I AM sending scouts far away. Like 3-4 system between the AI and any of my colonized systems. I do claim systems w/ breathable planets in them, even before I manage to get them colonized. Would the AI covet these systems, too? Even if (to my knowledge) they have never even seen these systems yet!!

My gifts and tributes (even of systems w/ their breathable planets in it) generally just get refused. I'm almost tempted to completely ignore the diplomacy aspects of the game. They do me no good anyway; in fact, it usually hurts me when an otherwise friendly AI suddenly declares war on me simply because I was foolish enough to accept their treaty.

Which is sad, because other than this miserably executed diplomacy system, I love this game (what little i've played it. not much free time lately). Can anyone tell me if I'm wrong? SHOULD I simply ignore all requests for treaties, or is there some way to get them to like me?

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May your Life prosper and your Dreams be sweet.

raynor · #7 March 19th, 2001, 09:19 AM

MEE stands for Mega Evil Empire. A human player becomes MEE when their score both exceeds 500K and is 170% of the score of the second place player. Once you become MEE, every race in the galaxy will get so angry with you that they declare war on your irrespective of what level of treaty you may have had with them before you became MEE.

In my games, I manage to keep the AI extremely happy with me by simply staying out of his systems. I try never to build a colony in a system with another empire's colony if I can help it. When my ships enter systems with foreign colonies, I immediately reverse course. From what I've seen, the AI gets much angrier with my ships in its systems and my colonies in its system than it does over 'lusting' after my planets. (Of course, I guess if he can't *see* my planets, then this won't upset him?)

[This message has been edited by raynor (edited 19 March 2001).]

klausD · #8 March 19th, 2001, 11:06 AM

I agree fully.
The diplomatic aspects of the game are not executed very well. I my games against the computer I ignore it normally.

I think MM has underestimated the problems of programming a good diplomacy system. IMO there are too many diplomatic features. And nobody needs them really. It would be enough to have 4 levels of relationship between the nations:
war (AI attacks you)
neutral (AI ignores you but dont let you in its territory. it dont go in your territory) trade (like neutral, but with trade revenues, limited access to each others territory)
alliance (trade plus unlimited access to each others territory, use of others supply bases, allied combat support, limited tech, territory and troop exchange)

These 4 levels should be well implemented and thought out. The AI should be carefully programmed in its reactions when it is on one of these levels. No more is needed against the AI. If I am playing against humans I can always agree on more complex terms.

klaus

dumbluck · #9 March 19th, 2001, 11:34 AM

raynor:
I did as you said from the start, and it doesn't seem to make any difference. I find the AI, then totally leave their systems alone. If possible, i park a scout in a storm/nebula between their systems and my own; that way i can keep an eye out to see if they come visiting. They don't.

Soon, they are liking me quite a bit (warm, receptive). then they offer me a treaty. (Some never like me much, and thus offer no treaty, but they're just the xenophobes). I accept their treaty.

This is all cool, and relatively straightforward. The part that is neither cool nor straightforward is the fact that as soon as I accept the treaty, they like me less and less. 5-10 turns later, they are murderous towards me and declare war. (unless i break the treaty before this occurs).

Why???? Lusting after my systems doesn't make sense, they've never SEEN my systems to lust after them? I Completely ignore them, only replying to Messages they send. (I tried pestering them with general Messages every turn or so, thinking that I had to talk to them to keep them happy. no luck.)

In my current game, i've met all of two races by turn 40. I accepted their treaties, and now they are both at war with me!!!!!

AAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ok. just had to vent a little frustration there. I'm ok. really.

klausD:
I disagree with you about simplifying the diplomacy levels. I like those the way they are. They will be a lot of fun when I get around to playing opponents who can utilize them effectively; someone w/ three Partners would be very, very hard to out-build. My problem is that the AI is NOT utilizing the diplomacy effectively at all!! Correction: My problem is that I can't understand WHY the AI isn't using the diplomacy effectively. If I understood WHY, I could work around it (hopefully).

In General:
Anyway, Sorry that I wasn't specific enough in my first post for all you helpful souls to give me advice pertenant to my problem. Oh, yea, more info for you:
v1.30; no mods.
(I'm still building up the courage to put mods in; I'm not the most computer literate apple in the barrel, if you know what i mean.)

Thanks again for all of y'alls help!!

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May your Life prosper and your Dreams be sweet.

[This message has been edited by dumbluck (edited 19 March 2001).]

Q · #10 March 19th, 2001, 12:55 PM

Just for curiosity dumbluck: which races got angry after you had a treaty with them?
In my experience this varies very much from race to race. Some races behave like you described, other maintain the treaties and their fiendly mood. And I think you can change that by modifying their anger text files.
One problem that I personally find much more frustrating is the faked "declare war" message.
There is absolutely nothing you can do against it. The AI will reject every new treaty proposal for over a year and propably until then there have been so many battles between you and the AI that his mood is murderous.
Among human players this would be settled quickly ("Hey the Last message was faked, let's stay friends). In my opinion the effect of the faked message should not be a full state of war, but just an increase of the anger level.