Question about Ukraine OOB...

[MarkSheppard]

Originally Posted by Mustang

Sources are unclear what is happening. So far they used a handful of Bradley, leopard etc in combat all of which were lost to mines and its not clear what operational capacity they have.

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/0...ukrainian.html

52 M2A2 Bradley ODS-SA: (1, destroyed) (2, destroyed) (3 and 4, destroyed) (5, destroyed) (6, destroyed) (7, 8, 9 and 10, destroyed) (11, destroyed) (12, destroyed) (13, destroyed) (14, destroyed) (15, destroyed) (16, destroyed) (17, destroyed) (18, destroyed) (19, destroyed) (20, destroyed) (21, destroyed) (22, destroyed) (23, destroyed) (24, destroyed) (25, destroyed) (26, destroyed) (1, damaged) (2, damaged) (3, 4, and 5, damaged) (6, damaged) (7, damaged) (8 and 9, damaged) (10, damaged) (11, damaged) (12, damaged) (13 and 14, damaged) (15 and 16, damaged) (17, damaged) (18, damaged) (19, damaged) (20, damaged) (21, damaged) (1, 2 and 3, damaged and abandoned) (4, damaged and abandoned) (5, damaged and abandoned)

[MarkSheppard]

From Oryx:

Delivered/Pledged
40 AMX-10 RC(R)s [Delivered from March 2023 onwards]

Losses
4 AMX-10 RC(R): (1, destroyed) (1 and 2, abandoned) (1, captured)

10% of the AMX-10 fleet has been heavily damaged so far, with one of them ending up in Patriot Park in Moscow.

==================

Delivered/Pledged
14 Leopard 2A4s [February 2023 and March 2023]
10 Leopard 2A4s [April and June 2023]
8 Leopard 2A4s [March 2023]
8 Leopard 2A4s [March 2023]
40 x Leo 2A4 Total

18 Leopard 2A6s [March 2023]
3 Leopard 2A6s [March 2023]
21 x Leo 2A6 Total

Losses
6 Leopard 2A4: (1, destroyed) (2, destroyed) (1, damaged) (2, damaged) (3, damaged) (4, damaged)

9 Leopard 2A6: (1, destroyed) (2, destroyed) (3, destroyed) (1, damaged) (2, damaged) (3, damaged) (1, damaged and abandoned) (2, damaged and abandoned) (3, damaged and abandoned)

So let's recap....15% of the Leopard 2A4s in AFU have been damaged in some way, as well as 42% of Leopard 2A6s.

"Limited use"

[MarkSheppard]

As for Marders; they literally only just started seeing action since 8/20 or so; so the bean counters have yet to catch up with them.

https://twitter.com/Ukraina8648545/s...19667547590687

German-made Marder 1A3 tank, in service with the 82nd Assault Brigade of Ukraine. The brigade recently entered the Ukrainian counter-offensive in the Zaporizhzhia region.

https://twitter.com/Military_oO/stat...84373192139088

German Marder 1A3 infantry fighting vehicle stuck in trench and abandoned

BTW, apparently the 82nd BDE has Challenger 2s, so we should see Challenger II in action "soon".

https://twitter.com/ChallengerInUA/s...53594440216768

The 82nd Air Assault Brigade of Ukraine, according to reports, has overcome the first anti-tank obstacles of the most heavily fortified Russian defense line. The 82nd operates all of Ukraine's Challenger 2 main battle tanks. No vids as yet!

But it's "coming", because Ukrainian propaganda is starting to HYPE the chally 2.

https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/...23706356408351

The 🇬🇧British Challenger 2 tank in service with the Airborne Assault Forces of the Armed Forces of 🇺🇦Ukraine in combat conditions and its advantages

💭 The accuracy of a British tank shot is comparable to a sniper rifle. If there were more such armored vehicles, we would be able to achieve a greater effect in the battle with the enemy, - notes the Ukrainian tanker.

[MarkSheppard]

Originally Posted by Mustang

For "long campaign" purposes having large Bradley and Abrams forces in Ukraine seems like a 2024-25 thing, all they have seen so far is some minefield losses.

Speaking of Abrams -- I think we're getting VERY close to them in Ukraine -- Late September, early October from the two datapoints:

Datapoint #1

https://www.reuters.com/world/us-sen...es-2023-09-01/

WASHINGTON, Sept 1 (Reuters) - The Biden administration will for the first time send controversial armor-piercing munitions containing depleted uranium to Ukraine, according to a document seen by Reuters and separately confirmed by two U.S. officials.

The rounds, which could help destroy Russian tanks, are part of a new military aid package for Ukraine set to be unveiled in the next week. The munitions can be fired from U.S. Abrams tanks that, according to a person familiar with the matter, are expected be delivered to Ukraine in the coming weeks.

Datapoint #2:
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...plete-training

According to a report from Politico yesterday, citing information from spokesperson Col. Martin O’Donnell, around 200 Ukrainian Armed Forces personnel have undergone training at different U.S. Army facilities in Germany. The report added that these soldiers “recently completed one of the last phases of the program, a combined arms, battalion force-on-force exercise at Hohenfels Training Area.”

...

Quoting an unnamed Pentagon official and “another person familiar with the discussions,” Politico now reports that the first 10 of these tanks will arrive in Ukraine in mid-September.

The same Pentagon official said that this batch of tanks was now “undergoing final refurbishments,” after which they can be dispatched to Ukraine, with the remaining 21 examples of the Abrams also due to arrive in-country during the fall.

[MarkSheppard]

New icons for next year

https://twitter.com/Archer83Able/sta...12191499845632
British-delivered Challenger 2 tank in service of the Ukrainian military with metal cope cage established on the turret for protection against Russian UAVs/loitering munitions.

https://twitter.com/lost_warinua/sta...49555881283601
T-72B3 with ERA laden Cope Cage

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/statu...123316/photo/1
M109L SPH with the biggest cope cage I've seen yet.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by MarkSheppard

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/0...ukrainian.html

52 M2A2 Bradley ODS-SA: (1, destroyed) (2, destroyed) (3 and 4, destroyed) (5, destroyed) (6, destroyed) (7, 8, 9 and 10, destroyed) (11, destroyed) (12, destroyed) (13, destroyed) (14, destroyed) (15, destroyed) (16, destroyed) (17, destroyed) (18, destroyed) (19, destroyed) (20, destroyed) (21, destroyed) (22, destroyed) (23, destroyed) (24, destroyed) (25, destroyed) (26, destroyed) (1, damaged) (2, damaged) (3, 4, and 5, damaged) (6, damaged) (7, damaged) (8 and 9, damaged) (10, damaged) (11, damaged) (12, damaged) (13 and 14, damaged) (15 and 16, damaged) (17, damaged) (18, damaged) (19, damaged) (20, damaged) (21, damaged) (1, 2 and 3, damaged and abandoned) (4, damaged and abandoned) (5, damaged and abandoned)

Being abandoned does not prove it was originally operational, almost the opposite.

Anyway as I already said people are free to construct their own scenarios as they wish, I just wouldn't consider it realistic to have major Ukrainian tank and apc forces.

And my other point is that it's a tank game. Infantry shouldn't even be in the game. Although I understand it has to be, the focus of the game is on tanks.

Ukraine right now is a red green "buy everything" oob. The only oobs that exist in real life are red and green. Western forces vs eastern forces. These are Afghanistan, Kurds, Syria, all the obscure factions that have imported equipment. This is the only way things can work.

Not to be political but Ukraine isn't a real country. It was not included in the original country because it's just a pass through for other countries to dump equipment on. Having Ukraine as an OOB just ends up being a "buy everything" OOB, just like the Taliban or vietnam is a "buy everything" OOB, because of captured equipment. Wherever the war is happening becomes the "buy everything" OOB which is why I suggested, if you want Ukraine to mean anything, you stick to equipment it actually has.

And yes, the Bradley has seen limited use, according to your own sources most of them were abandoned.

There are two possible directions to go with the Ukraine OOB. Either limit it to equipment it has in large numbers or that it made itself (to my awareness it hasn't made any significant weapons), or just get rid of the Ukraine OOB and make it the "buy everything" OOB. The direction the game is heading now is to just make Ukraine the red-green "buy everything" flag because if a country has a major war and lots of equipment is captured AND you count every minor thing used 10 times as a unit, you just end up with everything.

[DRG]

The third option, which is the one we are going with, is it stays as is and we ignore your "suggestions"

You blew any credibility you had out the window with "it's a tank game. Infantry shouldn't even be in the game" even with your additional comment "Although I understand it has to be, the focus of the game is on tanks."

No, it's a "combined arms" game as we state right at the start of the game guide.........

WinSPMBT is a Post World War II combined arms tactical level wargame

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by DRG

The third option, which is the one we are going with, is it stays as is and we ignore your "suggestions"

You blew any credibility you had out the window with "it's a tank game. Infantry shouldn't even be in the game" even with your additional comment "Although I understand it has to be, the focus of the game is on tanks."

No, it's a "combined arms" game as we state right at the start of the game guide.........

That is fine. I don't need to debate that.

The more fundamental issue is that Ukraine just becomes the red-green (yellow?) "Buy everything" country.

[DRG]

Yes, so what ?
Lots of nations have a mix of vehicle origins though right now Ukraine is the king of the hill for that but that's they way it worked out and we are not going to ignore it

[DRG]

Originally Posted by MarkSheppard

New icons for next year

NOPE...... for one unless the turret detail is very simple and there is NO CAMO applied putting a cage on top just makes it look a mess generally


EDIT start


It does a fair representation of it but making it more realistic with the cage spacing just makes it look worse in the game once you put it into terrain

EDIT end

I'm surprised the Ukrainians are doing that as the Russians found out at the start it's not very effective

The last photo of the M109 it may offer some protection but it might be more useful for camouflage. The POINT of SP arty is 1/ the ability to follow mobile forces forward and 2/ to be able to shoot and scoot........ not a lot of scooting when you are locked in a cage but that one may be fully open at the front... hard to tell for sure

The Ukrainians have shown they can adapt and improvise